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[umiman]

Remember. The constitutes are all exceptionally and intentionally vague to please everyone. As such, all these issues can be taken as one would take it. My argument is not that it is wrong, my argument is that it is not right as it is. So, in this sense, my argumentative point right now is to elaborate to you how easily it is to take this out of context.

For example, I shall assume the position of a troll:
"Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer."

I'm sure you don't need my help to elaborate on this one. Because... heh... "Requires Windows 98+, ~100MB Disk Space, 512MB RAM". Wow, I'm sure 5fps in any decent fort is adequate.

Then I will assume the position of the baited:
Don't be an idiot! You could so easily tweak the init file to allow faster FPS with things like temperature off. And this game is still in alpha! Toady hasn't taken the time, and shouldn't take the time, to change the minimum requirements on the front page.

Etc.

Understand? Think of it this way; imagine if the law for first degree murder simply states, "if you kill someone, you must die via mandatory death sentence." Same thing here.

[Torak]

Wait, what? Steam has always been great about this; constantly providing patches and adding new weapons and releasing videos for TF2 and allowing me to uninstall and reinstall whenever I like with no CD needed.

When I saw this I thought "Gee, sure is nice to see a second company following Steam's example."

Steam? Good to the customers? Don't make me laugh, they're one of the worst jokes out there, considering that you need to have both an internet connection AND a auto-updated version of their terrible software to get any of their games to work online (and offline as well).

[Gantolandon]

I don't think Dwarf Fortress should count. They certainly don't have in mind any other distribution model than the classic one.

It's not something all the developers have to follow. It's not even something Stardock has to follow. Still it's an important decision. By doing this they are propably the first developer to dismiss some practices. Those which even the gamers started to consider perfectly acceptable. This could cause a large loss of support for copy protection, for example.

We will have to see what will come out of this. It's certainly a nice move.

[umiman]

Gantolandon: Oh no, they certainly are referring to both retail and digital distribution.  A grand majority of Stardock's sales are done through DD and DD is the only feasible way most of these constitutes could ever get done. And they have to follow it. If not, they'd be hypocrites. You know. That word. The one people seem to have forgotten recently. The one that is supposed to prevent you from saying something and then doing the complete opposite.

Not that I'm against Stardock, oh no. I love them. They are a beacon of light in this murky pit of commercialized gaming. I just hate hypocrites. A lot. In fact, I have been designing a space weapon which specifically detects hypocrites hypocritting and then fires a fishing hook from space to hook them by the nipples and then pull them into space.

Ooooh the glory to be had.

Not that I'm insinuating that Stardock are hypocrites... YET. Eventually, oh yes. Eventually.

[Gantolandon]

Gantolandon: Oh no, they certainly are referring to both retail and digital distribution.  A grand majority of Stardock's sales are done through DD and DD is the only feasible way most of these constitutes could ever get done. And they have to follow it. If not, they'd be hypocrites. You know. That word. The one people seem to have forgotten recently. The one that is supposed to prevent you from saying something and then doing the complete opposite.

Not that I'm against Stardock, oh no. I love them. They are a beacon of light in this murky pit of commercialized gaming. I just hate hypocrites. A lot. In fact, I have been designing a space weapon which specifically detects hypocrites hypocritting and then fires a fishing hook from space to hook them by the nipples and then pull them into space.

Ooooh the glory to be had.

Not that I'm insinuating that Stardock are hypocrites... YET. Eventually, oh yes. Eventually.

I didn't say they will follow this. In fact they could even do something opposite. No problem. The one important fact is that a game distributor admits some very common business practices are unacceptable. Even when most developers succeeded in convincing their customers they are normal and used for their own good.

It's not important if the people in Stardock are hipocrytes, or not. They said this. If they won't comply with their own rules, well, it's only bad for them. It's in the best interest of gamers to memorize those rules and demand that game developers and distributors conform.

Never underestimate the power of propaganda

[umiman]

Then that would imply that it isn't game developers who have a problem. It's gamers who are too stupid to realize that they can already demand such things, as I said, with the power of their currency. What else are a bunch of gamers going to do? Stage a protest in front of EA HQ with picket signs? Complain on forums? If such things worked, then DOTA would never have existed and there wouldn't be sports games remade every year.

This conversation reminds me of this one game company that was badgered by its fanbase to do this and do that and do this and do that. That company went and totally abandoned its core fanbase who could never be satisfied for a far more profitable, significantly larger and less whiny userbase. Hmm... I wonder what's that company's name... It certainly couldn't be the one dominating the marketbase, could it? Their main star is a fat plumber who squishes mushrooms and lizards with his ass, go figure.

But, like I said. This is viral marketing targeted at elitist gamers like you and I. Nothing more. Any other regular "gamer" wouldn't know what's the deal, them not glued to their monitors browsing for the very latest in gaming news and all that. So, don't expect anything from it.

[Mephisto]

Gamers shall have the right to return games that don’t work with their computers for a full refund.

That's happened too many times to count. I go out and buy a game that has vague requirements, for instance a 128MB graphics card. That's alright, I've got one. Nope, wrong kind. I need to choose a card from a list that is only available online. It's kind of hard to check that list if I have to leave the store, drive home, check said list, and drive back to the store.

[Gantolandon]

Then that would imply that it isn't game developers who have a problem. It's gamers who are too stupid to realize that they can already demand such things, as I said, with the power of their currency.

That's why a distributor who reminds them about this is a good thing.

What else are a bunch of gamers going to do? Stage a protest in front of EA HQ with picket signs? Complain on forums? If such things worked, then DOTA would never have existed and there wouldn't be sports games remade every year.

Nah, currency is the only way to make demands. But the customers will never make any if they are convinced copy protection (for example) is right, just and for their own good.

But, like I said. This is viral marketing targeted at elitist gamers like you and I. Nothing more. Any other regular "gamer" wouldn't know what's the deal, them not glued to their monitors browsing for the very latest in gaming news and all that. So, don't expect anything from it.

That's why it's good to spread it to let it reach the average gamer. This average gamer who considers Steam as the best distribution system ever made. Yes, it's a marketing campaign, but spreading ideas you agree with is never a bad thing. The worst thing to do would be letting it die just to kick the great corporation's ass.

[umiman]

Those are good points. I didn't see it that way. Good show there.

I still see faults, like how Stardock is only known amongst hardcore PC gamers and as such, the message won't go past those borders (like how the reviewer's creed... thing that Kieron Gillian wrote never really left its hangar). But it's still a good thing, from that point of view.

[smeej]

Wait, what? Steam has always been great about this; constantly providing patches and adding new weapons and releasing videos for TF2 and allowing me to uninstall and reinstall whenever I like with no CD needed.

When I saw this I thought "Gee, sure is nice to see a second company following Steam's example."

Steam? Good to the customers? Don't make me laugh, they're one of the worst jokes out there, considering that you need to have both an internet connection AND a auto-updated version of their terrible software to get any of their games to work online (and offline as well).

Not to mention some games simply do not work and have never been fixed. Steam has been aware of Jagged Alliance being busted for 2 years and instead of fixing the problem or apologizing to anyone they just ignore it and occasionally put it in a bundle or on sale. Weak.

I'm sure you can see the obvious pandering towards the people who wrote the bill. Things like "Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time" are also too vague. What about expansion packs? Evidently, by this logic, gamers are expected to receive all expansion pack content for free then, with no incentive to actually make an expansion pack in the first place.

An expansion pack isn't a "latest version of a game" and I doubt that's what they meant. An expansion pack is a separate entity and perfectly valid. Less appropriate, however, is releasing an "expansion" that is no more than bug fixes and other "meaningful updates". I hate that crap.

edit: dang I made a better post than this and lost it.

[Fualkner]

To add to the Steam debate:

Steam is crap. Yes, it updates, yes, it works, and yes, it is occasionally a nice piece of software. However, it takes a large amount of RAM on my computer, glitches HORRIBLY at times, and when it isn't a nice piece of software, it's a great example of a steaming pile of horse crap. So while it could be worse, it could certainly be better. And expecting to connect to the internet for offline games is ridiculous. When the internet goes out and I want to play a game? No touching Half Life 2 or Garry's Mod. Really, that just disappoints me. However, it is the best protection against pirates. Do I foresee it continuing? Yes. The other things will hopefully stop, but protection by connecting to the internet is going to continue, regardless of what one company says.

[Makrond]

Wow, I really shouldn't read things and form opinions at 4 in the morning...

Looking at it in the cold light of day (and, indeed, listening now to that small niggling voice of doubt that I was too tired to notice earlier today), taken as anything except a set of guidelines, they're way too vague.

For example, "Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game’s release."

What is a meaningful update? What if (hypothetical situation) the game is entirely finished, completely bug-free, has all the content anyone could ever want, and does not require updates? Should we, as gamers, expect a meaningful and possibly game-breaking update?

Regarding returns for a non-working game: I buy most of my games from EB Games, because they have a satisfaction guarantee. If you don't like the game or it doesn't work, you can return it within 30 days for a full refund. Now, this is a solution at a store level, rather than a developer/publisher level. If more stores in general had a rule like this, everything would be better, but it's a retailer's decision, not a publisher's. It would be like returning your bananas to the farmer because they're incompatible with your stomach (over/underripe).

"Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state."

What is a finished state? Does that mean bug-free, or containing all content? If so, it defeats the purpose of the right directly below it... it means that as gamers, we demand a finished product, and then demand updates for it. It makes us sound like whinging little fucktards who want MOAR MOAR MOAR!!!!!!

Is this what Stardock considers gamers, as a whole, to be? I certainly hope not, but they seem to be implying it.

It is also, as many people have noted, quite hypocritical of Stardock, as their games certainly do not display these ethics.
 

[Dragooble]

hmmmm...
it seems i sort of agree with both sides on this one. some of those rights are very good and should be expected, however, a lot of those are way too vague and sometimes conflict with each other like so.

"Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state."

What is a finished state? Does that mean bug-free, or containing all content? If so, it defeats the purpose of the right directly below it... it means that as gamers, we demand a finished product, and then demand updates for it. It makes us sound like whinging little fucktards who want MOAR MOAR MOAR!!!!!!

all in all i appreciate what they were trying to do but they didnt quite make it.

[Nilocy]

To add to the Steam debate:

Steam is crap. Yes, it updates, yes, it works, and yes, it is occasionally a nice piece of software. However, it takes a large amount of RAM on my computer, glitches HORRIBLY at times, and when it isn't a nice piece of software, it's a great example of a steaming pile of horse crap. So while it could be worse, it could certainly be better. And expecting to connect to the internet for offline games is ridiculous. When the internet goes out and I want to play a game? No touching Half Life 2 or Garry's Mod. Really, that just disappoints me. However, it is the best protection against pirates. Do I foresee it continuing? Yes. The other things will hopefully stop, but protection by connecting to the internet is going to continue, regardless of what one company says.

I believe they have an 'Offline' mode now that lets you play single player games without being connected to the interwebs... But you have to be online for you to download the update first... *sigh* lol Steam have a good way of stopping piracy, just they're complete Nazis about it.

[Tormy]

To add to the Steam debate:

Steam is crap. Yes, it updates, yes, it works, and yes, it is occasionally a nice piece of software. However, it takes a large amount of RAM on my computer, glitches HORRIBLY at times, and when it isn't a nice piece of software, it's a great example of a steaming pile of horse crap. So while it could be worse, it could certainly be better. And expecting to connect to the internet for offline games is ridiculous. When the internet goes out and I want to play a game? No touching Half Life 2 or Garry's Mod. Really, that just disappoints me. However, it is the best protection against pirates. Do I foresee it continuing? Yes. The other things will hopefully stop, but protection by connecting to the internet is going to continue, regardless of what one company says.

Well to be honest Ive never used Steam...only Stardock's Impulse, but I like that. Usually I buy physical copies when I can, but Ive purchased Galciv2 online for example. [Im not even sure that its distributed normally or not at all..]