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If this gets implemented, which Guild would you like to see first?

The Miners Guild - House Tekkud (Pick)
The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)
The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
Handlers of the Dead - House Rash (Death)
The Military Orders

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Author Topic: Return of the Guild Masters  (Read 35396 times)

Granite26

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2008, 02:02:55 pm »

The slave labour may be a little misleading.  I was just thinking 'Dwarves mining Gem tiles do so at +3 skill levels when deciding whether to produce a raw gem or not'

I agree that manufactured demand is a tech that is anachronistic...

Anywho, to generalize the farmer's guild stuff, just say that end products (Food and clothes) can be given unique recipes that add free 'bonus value' on top of quality.  The recipes are coming, but in order for them to be worthwhile, they need to offer something in return.  I.E. free value.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 02:07:20 pm by Granite26 »
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Fieari

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2008, 02:05:43 pm »

You got a thing against DeBiers too , huh? I don't care how much I love her, she's not getting a diamond. Sapphires, rubies, Emeralds, Garnets...just no Diamonds.

[offtopic]I gave my fiancee a Ruby, and she loves it.  Down with DeBeers!

Unfortunately, we had to have the ruby reset, and they automatically reset it with little specks of diamond dust along the new mounting.[/offtopic]

Kimberlite pipes sound like a good idea.  Diamonds could be made as common as they are in real life.  Diamonds are only rare in certain locations.  If you have such a pipe, they're about as common as dirt.  As such, you could get yourself a real diamond industry... jewelry yes, but also tools with industrial diamond edges, furniture made out of diamonds (maybe multiple diamonds, but when you heave enough of them...!), even BUILDING blocks of diamond (again, combining multiple gems).
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Othob Rithol

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2008, 02:17:02 pm »

I have a tendency to go back and modify my last post as I am working on the OP, so you might have missed the offer in my last one...

I mined the following from one of Tamren's old threads, and wanted to store it here for reference:
Upgrading Nobles
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 08:06:50 am by Othob Rithol »
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Granite26

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2008, 11:53:37 am »

Meh, I don't really care all that much, I'm just bored at work.

Aquillion

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2008, 04:30:58 am »

One idea I posted way back when:  In addition to their other abilities, give all guild masters the ability to try and 'recruit' individual highly-skilled dwarves with the skills of their guild to your fortress (from another fortress, or the outside world, or whatever), on request.  This would be activated by the player from the menu -- for instance, if you have a contact with the guild that governs farming, and all your farmers die in a tragic accident, you could use your guild connections to try and lure in a skilled farmer from somewhere else.

Of course, using this ability is not free, and has limits.  You have to make offerings both to the dwarf you're trying to attract, to their old fortress (who would get annoyed otherwise), and to the guildmaster.  This is represented by requests and demands the guildmaster would make/relay to you before they'd send for the skilled dwarf you're attracting.  These requests would be nontrivial (adding another use for large amounts of wealth); a skilled dwarf is worth far, far more than just about anything players trade for now (think about how much a single skilled craftsdwarf can produce in their lifetime.)

If the dwarf you're attracting makes demands, you'd have to not only satisfy them to get them to come; you'd also have to have everything ready for them when they arrive.  If it's not there, they go ballistic.

And, of course, your relations with the guild (or, more specifically, the guildmaster) would have to be good.

Of course, the dwarves being attracted are not legendary (legendary dwarves do their own thing and can't just be lured from place to place like that.)  But it's better than having to train up a novice or someone with only minor skill.

You couldn't use this ability too often, and you couldn't use it for multiple guilds too often, either -- other fortresses in your civilization get annoyed if one fortress is constantly, aggressively trying to attract all the highly-skilled dwarves.  It would be mostly for emergencies or to fill badly-needed gaps in your workforce.

EDIT:  Oh, I see someone quoted me way back on the first page.  Well, this is a more refined version of that old idea, anyway...  I think...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 04:38:04 am by Aquillion »
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Glacies

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2008, 06:33:06 am »

House Fer because of butchering pets.

Otherwise, order of the crossbow!

Othob Rithol

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2008, 08:03:03 am »

I added in the "import a specialist" including a link to your post.
I'm going to try to  add in such links to all the longer posts that I abbreviate into one-liners.

I also removed the (credit to Dame de la Licorne), not because she doesn't deserve it, but because I realized how much time I could waste marking down who thought of what.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 08:06:29 am by Othob Rithol »
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snelg

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2008, 07:59:00 am »

Is it just me who think a lot (or at least some) of those things should be avaible without all the guild masters?
Quote
The Animal Handlers Guild- You can set max populations of a given animal type. Excess are butchered.
Quote
The Stones screen gains a MASON selection.
For instance would be really nice to have, but why do you need a guild for it?
I like the Idea of having guilds and guild masters, it's just that it feels like a lot of the things they do is reducing micromanagement, things that I feel should be avaible all the time.
Stuff like:
Quote
The GM could authorize the ordering and importation of rare animals.
Something interresting and cool, but nothing you really need to get to not having to forbid every single stone in the fortress because you want to make 10 obsidian coffers.
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Granite26

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2008, 10:05:46 am »

I think part of it is to clean up the interface (fewer options = easier to learn) for people who don't use them.

You only get the guild if you get enough dwarves in that field.  If you don't, you don't need the functionality.  If you DO need the fuctionality, you should pay for it.  It's a game, and you need to keep the challenge in it somehow, and nobles are the excepted 'extra requirements' structure

Othob Rithol

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2008, 10:35:08 am »

Actually I agree with you snelg. Most of the "Screen X gains button Y" entries about being able to control what materials are used should be part ogf the default game, and I hoe they all make it in under "Improved Resource Managamenet".  In a prior version of the document several of them were listed as](should probably be part of the default game) but I removed them for two reasons:

1) They are not part of the game, and thus if they entered the game via this method, at least they would be there for a later "Ability X of Guild Y should be available from the start" suggestions to amend it. Not saying all the abilities should do so. It may be, that upon adding them to the Guilds, that the game is better that way: with fewer base controls, but with increasing quality and automation of control as guilds enter the fort.

2) What should and should not be default is a highly subjective call, and this thread could rapidly be derailed by discussion of what should and should not have that tag.

Granite also expresses a valid point: The interface (to make it easier to learn) should be simpler in the beginning, and increase in complexity as the fort does. I usually avoid citing other games, the the recent release of Spore by Maxis (yeah) and EA (boo!) demonstrates that principle admirably. the interface steadily grows in complexity as the game progresses.

Some of the abilities by there features require a noble. You mention the auto-butchering of animals:  a very popular idea. Which dwarf (lacking a Guildmaster) determines how many head of muskoxen the fort has? Who lets the manager know that we need to kill a few?

Othob Rithol

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Appendix A : Suggested Changes to Guild Skills
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2008, 11:36:11 am »

Seeing as it continues to be a topic of contention, I'm going to use this post to compile a list of changes to what guild governs what skills. Some of it will be based on the contents of the Dwarves and Professions thread as well as this thread and its evil twin. Think of this as more of an Appendix to the main suggestion, and a blatant attempt to re-ignite discussion. I won't be listing how the Guild abilities would have to be modified due to these changes. If, somehow, we agree on one solid profession change list, we can go on to discuss that next.

The Miners Guild - House Tekkud (Pick)
  • Is removed, and merged with The Stoneworkers Guild
The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
  • Adds Wood Crafting and Wood Burner
The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
  • Adds Mining and Stone Crafting
The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
  • Adds Butcher, Milker, and Bone Carving
The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
  • Adds Glass Maker
The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
  • Loses Wood Crafter, Stone Crafter, Bone Crafter and Glass Maker
  • Adds Dyer and Leather Worker.
  • Becomes the Clotheworkers Guild, named House Negteth (Silk) Thuvegkesh (Pigtail) or Romlam (Cloak), since there is no root word for cloth (or one could be added).
The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
  • Loses Butcher, Tanner, Wood Burner, Dyer and Milker
  • If the Alchemy Guild is developed (see below), loses Lye Maker, Potash Maker, and Soap Maker.
The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
  • Adds Architect, taken from the non-guilded Administrator group
The Alchemists Guild (Contingent on the development of Alchemy)
  • Is composed of Alchemist, Lye Maker, Potash Maker, and Soap Maker.


Suggestions Welcome
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 02:14:36 pm by Othob Rithol »
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Granite26

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2008, 12:38:49 pm »

Looks good to me

Dame de la Licorne

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Re: Appendix A : Suggested Changes to Guild Skills
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2008, 12:46:01 pm »

The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
  • Adds Wood Crafting and Wood Burner
The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
  • Adds Stone Crafting
The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
  • Adds Butcher, Tanner, Milker, and Bone Carving
The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
  • Adds Glass Maker
The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
  • Loses Wood Crafter, Stone Crafter, Bone Crafter and Glass Maker
  • Adds Dyer.
  • Becomes the Clotheworkers Guild, named House Negteth (Silk) Thuvegkesh (Pigtail) or Romlam (Cloak), since there is no root word for cloth.
The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
  • Loses Butcher, Tanner, Wood Burner, Dyer and Milker
The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
  • Adds Architect, taken from the non-guilded Administrator group

Suggestions Welcome

Yes, yes, YES!!  The professions need a major overhaul.  I'm not sure that soap-making and lye-making should stay with the farmers, but they don't really fit in anywhere else, either.  Maybe those two, plus pump-operating(??) and cleaning (not that that's a skillable job right now, but you never know) could go into a new guild, House Lecad (Cleaners)?  The color would be cyan, I don't think it's currently used.  Just an idea.
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Granite26

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Re: Appendix A : Suggested Changes to Guild Skills
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2008, 12:52:09 pm »

The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
  • Adds Wood Crafting and Wood Burner
The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
  • Adds Stone Crafting
The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
  • Adds Butcher, Tanner, Milker, and Bone Carving
The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
  • Adds Glass Maker
The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
  • Loses Wood Crafter, Stone Crafter, Bone Crafter and Glass Maker
  • Adds Dyer.
  • Becomes the Clotheworkers Guild, named House Negteth (Silk) Thuvegkesh (Pigtail) or Romlam (Cloak), since there is no root word for cloth.
The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
  • Loses Butcher, Tanner, Wood Burner, Dyer and Milker
The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
  • Adds Architect, taken from the non-guilded Administrator group

Suggestions Welcome

Yes, yes, YES!!  The professions need a major overhaul.  I'm not sure that soap-making and lye-making should stay with the farmers, but they don't really fit in anywhere else, either.  Maybe those two, plus pump-operating(??) and cleaning (not that that's a skillable job right now, but you never know) could go into a new guild, House Lecad (Cleaners)?  The color would be cyan, I don't think it's currently used.  Just an idea.

Or alchemists...   More alchemy should be coming soon.

I'd also like to bring up the possibility of a many to many skill -> labour relation that might make this more complicated.  (Smoothing and Engraving use the same skill, but are enabled differently in the labour screen for the dwarf), or (glassmaker really giving points in 'glassblowing' and 'glass-carving' but you can't separate them.)

Atanamis

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Re: Return of the Guilds - Guild Masters
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2008, 04:01:08 pm »

1) Woodworker
    * Bowyer
    * Carpenter
    * Wood cutter
    * Wood crafter (MOVED from Crafters)
    * Wood burner  (MOVED from Farmer)

2) Stoneworker
    * Engraver
    * Mason
    * Miner (MOVED from Miner)
    * Stone crafter (MOVED from Crafters)

3) Ranger (RENAME to Animals)
    * Ambusher
    * Animal caretaker
    * Animal dissector
    * Animal trainer
    * Trapper
    * Bone carver (MOVED from Crafters)
    * Butcher (MOVED from Farmer)
    * Cheese maker (MOVED from Farmer)
    * Milker (MOVED from Farmer)

4) Metalsmith
    * Armorsmith
    * Furnace operator
    * Metal crafter
    * Blacksmith
    * Weaponsmith

5) Jeweler
    * Gem cutter
    * Gem setter
    * Glassmaker (MOVED from Crafters)

6) Craftsdwarf (RENAME to Clothworkers)
    * Clothier
    * Leatherworker
    * Weaver
    * Strand extractor
    * Tanner (MOVED from Farmer)
    * Dyer (MOVED from Farmer)

Administrator (no guild)
    * Appraiser
    * Organizer
    * Record keeper

7) Fishery Worker
    * Fish cleaner
    * Fish dissector
    * Fisherdwarf

8 ) Farmer
    * Brewer
    * Cook
    * Grower
    * Herbalist
    * Miller
    * Thresher

9) Alchemists (New Type, gray to replace Miners)
    * Lye maker
    * Potash maker
    * Soaper


10) Engineer
    * Mechanic
    * Pump operator
    * Siege engineer
    * Siege operator
    * Building designer (MOVED from Administrators)

(omitted military skills and no profession skills)

I see no problem with having 10 guilds in a large fortress. The rule that there must be 5-8 proficient members to form a guild seems legitimate, and entirely achievable for all 10 groupings. As with other "working nobles", the only initial requirements for a "small" guild should be a bedroom and an office. Only as guild size and proficiency grows should demands increase. Demands like better quarters for legendary guild members seem reasonable as well. The power/demands of a guild should be based on how often you use their services, the number of members, the proficiency of individual members, and the total proficiency of all members.

The military groupings should be a little different, with one "training master" who gets special treatment and demands for specialized training areas for highly utilized types. This means if you have 10 hammermen, they might demand a specialized hammer training area. Complaints about housing, weapon, and armor quality would also possibly come through the training master. Having a separate "guild" for each weapon type seems excessive though.
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