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Author Topic: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion  (Read 2730 times)

Granite26

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 01:50:02 pm »

Just bringing this article under attention:

Character attributes in role-playing games
http://hiddenway.tripod.com/articles/attrib.html

It will be very useful when reconsidering the attribute system. For the reluctant readers: there is a list of common attributes at the bottom of the article.

Draco18s

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 02:43:22 pm »

I picture something like:

Very nice.

Personally I'd pull back the magic attributes and use Inspiration/Creativity instead of Potency (i.e. that "smarter mages are better mages" and also makes sense, a character who is cleaver will find more efficient ways of spending his available magic, which also matches up with preconceived notions and ideas as well as existing literature).
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 09:58:28 pm »

THat's a great idea; I felt the two magic attributes there were forced feeling, and then it's a nice, neat 3x3. 
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Toady One

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 10:41:20 pm »

For reference, Armok 1 had this skeleton in place (I haven't settled on anything yet):


Mental attributes stored by the "soul" (an unused system was in place where one body could contain several souls):

Rationality
Focus
Willpower
Creativity
Intuition
Patience
Memory


And mental skills (the distinction being that they can be trained more readily that atts, but it's sort of a false dichotomy -- the first list are properties of the soul that change very slowly if at all):

Coordination
Balance
Concentration
Knowledge Acquisition
Situational Awareness


The body itself has three attributes:

Strength
Dexterity
Endurance


There were also physical skills that were picked up by the soul as it inhabited a body, which partially fit the attribute mold:

Familiarity with specific body
Familiarity with body type at the creature/species level
Familiarity with body type at the form level (humanoid etc.)
Familiarity with body type among other groupings (mammal etc.)
Walking/flying/combat actions/etc. (these might have been body-independent, using familiarities above to modify)


It didn't address the social/personality side of things because the game wasn't there, though I'll have to have stuff for this game.  It's also important to keep in mind that the attribute system needs to cover both dwarf mode and adventure mode.  The existing personality facets also cover some things that are normally attributes (stability for example is already covered by one of the facets, and those effects exist in the current version).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 10:44:18 pm by Toady One »
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Aquillion

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2008, 05:12:37 am »

I picture something like:

Very nice.

Personally I'd pull back the magic attributes and use Inspiration/Creativity instead of Potency (i.e. that "smarter mages are better mages" and also makes sense, a character who is cleaver will find more efficient ways of spending his available magic, which also matches up with preconceived notions and ideas as well as existing literature).
One thing I've noticed here is that a lot of people seem to be assuming we need to have just one single way to use magic.  Why would we want that?

We can have memorization systems, tiredness systems, ritual systems, and so on all as different options.  Different races might have radically different ways of using magic.  (Of course, there should be some underlying metaphysical commonality so they can interact, dispel each other, etc, but the way they draw on that basic raw magic force could be radically different.)

And, to get back on topic, this could be reflected in stats, too.  "Magical" creatures like demons and faeries could have a stat that represents raw, innate magical ability; perhaps even elves could have a bit of this.  With a high enough value, you could use magic based on this without much intelligence at all; it would be used for more 'innate' sorts of powers (which just tire you, or consume some sort of magical force.)

MP I agree is too abstract for the Dwarf Fortress universe, but something vaguely similar could still be used, especially for magical creatures -- some measure of the amount of magic they have stored in their body.  Different creatures could recover it in different ways or at different rates (vampires, if they exist, would drink blood; elves, if they have it, would recover it faster near trees, and particularly near their named special trees in their elven glades.)  If you're playing as such a race, you wouldn't get an exact number for your magic reserves; you'd just have a general sense of them.  Or it might be expressed as 'tiring' you, since that magic is a part of your general energy.  But from a metaphysical standpoint, you're feeling tired because you've started to exhaust the magic that is an essential part of your being, and you need to replenish it soon.

In fact, I think it would make sense if all magic requires some sort of magical 'power source', but that the way you get that power could vary wildly; not everyone would have it innately...

But this magical energy could also be stored in objects -- a human might not have innate power to draw on, but they could get (or steal) a piece of wood from those sacred magic-filled elven trees, or a magic rock with a certain amount of power in it, or some special herbs you gathered or grew that contain a bit of magic you can use.  Some artifacts would also contain magic (and you'd want materials containing magic to make such artifacts, too -- which could create a lot of conflict with the elves, who of course have those valuable magic-producing trees that everyone wants to cut down so they can use their wood.)  Humans might want to create wands out of the wood of elven trees, say.

Objects containing magic might or might not replenish that power over time, or only recover it under certain circumstances.  Artifacts should probably almost always have a way to replenish it, though that could vary from artifact to artifact (an artifact weapon or armor might require that it be splattered with blood to recover it -- in fact, any artifact might require this.  Others might draw on sunlight, or from water, or by slowly weakening those around them.  Some might just recover it innately (they're drawing it from who knows where.)

Things like magic-containing herbs and rocks would probably be mostly expendable (though herbs would probably be 'used up' anyway.  Magical-storage rocks could be charged if you have another source of magic to draw into them from, perhaps, assuming you have the skills and talent to do so.)

Deities and other powerful entities could provide non-magical entities with an innate magic pool to draw on, too.  (The proverbial 'deal with the devil'.)  This might or might not be the same as being a magical creature yourself.

For races without innate magic, intelligence, inspiration, or whatever would be more important.  There might be a stat that represents a kind of 'folksy' innate understanding of magic (or perhaps this would be a skill.)  Some races, like Elves, might combine some limited natural magic with intelligent study; others might depend entirely on one or the other (humans and dwarves would probably depend on using magic drawn from objects or other sources; demons and unicorns would get their magic entirely innately.)

Of course, magic could also have a 'flavor'; if you kill a demon, its claw might contain magic you could use, but don't expect it to be useful for magical healing!  A unicorn's horn would be much better.  Likewise, those magical herbs you collect might not be useful for anything but.  Things like artifacts might have a specific way they're supposed to use their magic (which might not even require any skills or anything); but someone skilled in magic could perhaps still draw this power out for their own usage.

Some rituals might work for people with no innate magic, without having to have a magic-filled object to draw on.  These rituals could be powered by a deity or some other entity under some ancient contract or understanding to respond to them; or they could be a secret way of converting something else into magical energy (animal/human/dwarven sacrifice, for instance.)  Or perhaps those sacrifices are just a way to get some entity to provide you with the power you need.

Rituals would be a way to do 'prepared' (or 'memorization-style') magic, for those who practice it.  You're making a deal in advance with some entity to do what you want at a later time...  or you're charging yourself or some object up with a particular effect to be discharged later, or whatever.  Of course, preparing some of these abilities wouldn't be as simple as just sitting down with your book to memorize -- some could require animal sacrifice every time to make a deal with whatever entity you're using to prepare for it.  Others, though, might be simple to prepare.

Just some thoughts, anyway.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 05:29:57 am by Aquillion »
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Neonivek

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2008, 07:19:41 am »

For reference, Armok 1 had this skeleton in place (I haven't settled on anything yet):


Mental attributes stored by the "soul" (an unused system was in place where one body could contain several souls):

Rationality
Focus
Willpower
Creativity
Intuition
Patience
Memory


And mental skills (the distinction being that they can be trained more readily that atts, but it's sort of a false dichotomy -- the first list are properties of the soul that change very slowly if at all):

Coordination
Balance
Concentration
Knowledge Acquisition
Situational Awareness


The body itself has three attributes:

Strength
Dexterity
Endurance


There were also physical skills that were picked up by the soul as it inhabited a body, which partially fit the attribute mold:

Familiarity with specific body
Familiarity with body type at the creature/species level
Familiarity with body type at the form level (humanoid etc.)
Familiarity with body type among other groupings (mammal etc.)
Walking/flying/combat actions/etc. (these might have been body-independent, using familiarities above to modify)


It didn't address the social/personality side of things because the game wasn't there, though I'll have to have stuff for this game.  It's also important to keep in mind that the attribute system needs to cover both dwarf mode and adventure mode.  The existing personality facets also cover some things that are normally attributes (stability for example is already covered by one of the facets, and those effects exist in the current version).

Some of that... just about kills me in wondering if some of it is completely outdated... I mean a soul system? Amazing! However unless that is actually in "Secret cool stuff" or "Cool Secret Stuff" or "Things I am not going to tell you about until I Wow you and make you wet your pants later" I somehow doubt it is going to be in the final game unless I missed the Bloat and/or powergoal
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Granite26

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 08:43:45 am »

Thanks for the in-depth response Toady,  I always appreciate hearing from you.

The soul system sounds extremely useful, especially if there's personality traits attached.

Imagine having jeckle and hyde scenarios.  Not to mention being able to define how a race or individual goes mad?  Imagine having elves go from cannibals to exploding in an overdose of raw magic power... Super Sayan(sp) style.

Tormy

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 09:36:34 am »

For reference, Armok 1 had this skeleton in place (I haven't settled on anything yet):


Mental attributes stored by the "soul" (an unused system was in place where one body could contain several souls):

Rationality
Focus
Willpower
Creativity
Intuition
Patience
Memory


And mental skills (the distinction being that they can be trained more readily that atts, but it's sort of a false dichotomy -- the first list are properties of the soul that change very slowly if at all):

Coordination
Balance
Concentration
Knowledge Acquisition
Situational Awareness


The body itself has three attributes:

Strength
Dexterity
Endurance


There were also physical skills that were picked up by the soul as it inhabited a body, which partially fit the attribute mold:

Familiarity with specific body
Familiarity with body type at the creature/species level
Familiarity with body type at the form level (humanoid etc.)
Familiarity with body type among other groupings (mammal etc.)
Walking/flying/combat actions/etc. (these might have been body-independent, using familiarities above to modify)


It didn't address the social/personality side of things because the game wasn't there, though I'll have to have stuff for this game.  It's also important to keep in mind that the attribute system needs to cover both dwarf mode and adventure mode.  The existing personality facets also cover some things that are normally attributes (stability for example is already covered by one of the facets, and those effects exist in the current version).

Interesting system. However Im not sure how would magic work using this system. [Was there any magery in Armok 1 at all? I havent played with it sadly..]..but again we dont know what you have in mind about magic at all Toady.. ;D

Added this topic to the master list!
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Granite26

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 04:28:08 pm »

Just some thoughts, anyway.

I like the different flavours involving different stats thing.  I always felt that intelligence and wisdom were useless D&D artifacts added in because the game wanted to track magical power and how smart you were, but both of those paled in comparison to strength, so it mushed them together.  (Plus it made all mages smart and all clerics wise).  I really hope that DF avoids that paradigm.

Maybe a system of magic were there are different 'schools' and each school has it's own stat definitions?

the 'Elf Magic' school would be largely based on an Arcane (Raw Magic) stat (80%) with a little bit of intelligence(20%), and contain all spells in the Healing and Nature spheres?  You'd also have to assign a casting type (Innate, Spell, Will, Ritual).



More on topic, I'd like to give a shout out to the split systems.  There are a few of these.

The first is the simplest.  Your constitution is a combination of your endurance (how long you can run), toughness (how much you can take), resilience (how fast you heal) and your resistance (how much toxins and diseases affect you).  Your core stat (Constitution) is used for the general cases, but occasionally a specific use pops up.  For example you get stabbed.  To find out if you pass out from the pain, it's a Con+Tough check.  The poison on the blade?  Con+Resistance.  Later, after you run 3 miles straight to get away (con+endurance), you spend the night in an inn where the wound heals somewhat (con+resilience).

Boosts to your constitution affect all uses.  The subskills merely parts.  I like this idea for personalities.  (I.E. set the subcategories at birth.  Urist gets sick an unusual amount (-1 resistance) but doesn't tire as easily as other dwarves (+1 endurance).   These wouldn't change as the character gets Tougher)

The next is slightly more common.  It covers all derived stats.  Basically you'd have agility and balance as two different stats, but only expose (to the user) dexterity.  Or how hitpoints are occasionally calculated as a function of size and constitution.

Draco18s

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2008, 04:46:33 pm »

I like the different flavours involving different stats thing.  I always felt that intelligence and wisdom were useless D&D artifacts added in because the game wanted to track magical power and how smart you were, but both of those paled in comparison to strength, so it mushed them together.  (Plus it made all mages smart and all clerics wise).  I really hope that DF avoids that paradigm.

D&D 4E both made things better and made them worse.
For instance, you can use the higher or your Dex or Int for AC and Reflex (the saves are now "defenses" that are about 2-3 points lower than your AC).  For mages it's similar to having a permanent Mage Sheild cast vs. being dexterous.

Problem is there's still no reason for a fighter to be smart or wise, because if he doesn't put as many points as he can into Strength or Con (for the fighter class it depends on what weapon you're using, hammers rely on Con) he won't be able to hit anything.  Used to be you could sacrifice +1 to hit and get +1 to your Will saving throw and all was good, 5% didn't matter that much.

Now...+1 to hit isn't 5% more often you hit, it's more like 20%.  May have partially been that Shadowfell Keep was poorly designed (good writing, bad game balance) in that a level 3 party was fighting a level 8 elite monster and we could only hit him on 17s.

But....Nate did the math.  A level 1 character will hit a level 1 soldier 45 to 55% of the time (bonus to hit equal to AC).  A level 10 character (with magic items) will hit a level 10 monster 40 to 45% of the time.  At level 20 it drops to about 35%.  At level 30 it's close to 25%.

Monster level progression is Defences and attack +1 per +1 level.
PC progression +1 attack per 2 levels with +1 from stat every 8 (every 4 levels you get +1 to two different stats) and +1 defenses per 2 levels (and +1 every 8 levels to one non-AC defense, if it's reflex AC also goes up).

And that's not counting the fact that every character is cookie cutter identical to every other character of the same class (race makes almost no difference, races get 1 per encounter ability to set them apart from other races, in combat it makes less than a 5% difference).
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Aquillion

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2008, 03:20:04 am »

I like the different flavours involving different stats thing.  I always felt that intelligence and wisdom were useless D&D artifacts added in because the game wanted to track magical power and how smart you were, but both of those paled in comparison to strength, so it mushed them together.  (Plus it made all mages smart and all clerics wise).  I really hope that DF avoids that paradigm.

D&D 4E both made things better and made them worse.
For instance, you can use the higher or your Dex or Int for AC and Reflex (the saves are now "defenses" that are about 2-3 points lower than your AC).  For mages it's similar to having a permanent Mage Sheild cast vs. being dexterous.

Problem is there's still no reason for a fighter to be smart or wise, because if he doesn't put as many points as he can into Strength or Con (for the fighter class it depends on what weapon you're using, hammers rely on Con) he won't be able to hit anything.  Used to be you could sacrifice +1 to hit and get +1 to your Will saving throw and all was good, 5% didn't matter that much.
On the other hand, 3rd edition did have one place where they got things right (which ties back in to what I think are good ideas for Dwarf Fortress):

The Tome of Battle provided a wide variety of different 'schools' for martial characters to follow.  Different schools would use different stats for their techniques, so there was a school of fighting for smart fighters, one for agile/quick fighters, one for charismatic 'inspirational' fighters, and so on.
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Ascii Kid

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2008, 04:45:24 am »

Something just dawned on me while I was playing around tonight, and that thing is as follows: With the soul system, you can have a real, achieveable goal of ascending to heaven/descending to hell, by virtue to self mastery, which ties in with arcs reguarding planes of existance that already exist. 
For example: Flora McForest, diety of Flowers and Sunshine.  You convert to that religion, and now you've started down the path (talking long, Morrowind style long) towards unleashing your soul from your current body and going to whichever random plane she controls (The Flowers and/or sunshine plane), where and entirely NEW world exists, from which you can furthure your soul stats and then begin possessing features of the material plane, possibly even cohabibating or forcing out current souls from their hosts.
This is all totally easy to imagine with practically no change to the game itself, simply: a layered world generation system, or one that's contingent on an adventurer actually visiting it, but that uses the same essential frame work that exists; a few lines of dialog that detail the journey, "You must speak with x to learn y", where x is a varrible choosen from amoung ranking church members and y a varible reguarding the religion.  when you go visit them they don't even need to be specific, just "You learn some of the secrets of Sunshine from x", and then you scurry around collecting the secrets. devotees advance quickly, while slackers may never spend the required time playing tag with people (and books, once they're in there); and the implentation of the extended stats. 
Then there's the flip side of that, which goes you wander into a village and meet a blacksmith you tells you his name is Ollie O'Hardbody sometimes, and sometimes it's Vong Ripchest the Skyful Badger of Hate.  Other villagers tell you he's lived there for years, but lately, in 652 (one more line of dialog =->) he's being actting strange.  Years later you return and everyone is dead and there's a new temple to a blood diety and old Ollie/Vong are(is) at it's head.  Pretty friggin cool.
Sorry to go off on such a tangent, but that whole idea is really, really cool in my eyes.
The magic could then be "tempered by the soul", so that the strength and character shape it. 
These are the "Soul Traits" Toady has graciously shared with us:

Rationality: Book magic, the more rational a soul the better they are able to decypher/write magic from/to records.
Focus: Concentrating/maintaining magics of all sorts, from empowering the host to extending the duration of spells.
Willpower: Probably like the battery of the soul, the juice you have available internally and how much magical punishment your soul can withstand (if that will be an option, like the Ag damage from Mage)
Creativity: Your ability to pick up new spells and forms of magic?
Intuition: I like the idea of a scale of self awareness reguarding magic, but how would you put that into a computer game?  I guess, high intuition might let you figure out stuff on your own, while low would require instruction?
Patience: The ability to stave of fatigue while casting ritual spells.
Memory: The overall formulic capacity of a character, ie. Every point here equals one magical formula or something.

Well.  That was really, really long.  But I'm bored.
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Draco18s

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2008, 01:41:55 pm »

On the other hand, 3rd edition did have one place where they got things right (which ties back in to what I think are good ideas for Dwarf Fortress):

The Tome of Battle provided a wide variety of different 'schools' for martial characters to follow.  Different schools would use different stats for their techniques, so there was a school of fighting for smart fighters, one for agile/quick fighters, one for charismatic 'inspirational' fighters, and so on.

I've only seen one or two Tome of Battle characters.  I'm not really fond of the way they did the mechanics of it, but it might be something to look into for DF.
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Granite26

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2008, 02:14:15 pm »

My hatred of D&D knows no bounds.

Othob Rithol

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Re: Fully Fleshed Stats Discussion
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2008, 02:43:21 pm »

My hatred of D&D knows no bounds.

Before there was Michelangelo there was Ugh, the cave painter.
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