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[Granite26]

Stat suggestions so far:

Physical Stats:
        No changes have been suggested.
        Strength
        Agility
        Stamina

Mental Stats:
        Intelligence
        Wisdom
        Perception
        Memory
        Creativity
        Logic
        Analysis
        Detail/Focus
        Wit(s)
        Intuition
        Sanity/Stability/Mental Fortitude
       
Social Stats
        Manipulation
        Appearance (Listed due to the general contempt expressed)
        Leadership
        Charisma

Magic Stats (These could use better names)
        Magic Power/Magic Endurance/Magical Dexterity
        Use Mental (or social) stats
        Chi/Attunement
        Control/Alter/Sense

Magic Systems (not part of the core, but they're intrinsic to magic stats)
        Memorization System (Classic D&D)
        Mana Point System (Classic Console RPG)
        Fatigue System (Roll versus endurance per spell, take damage for failure)
        Component/Ritual system (Cost of spells is time and components.  Magic is slow, not combat useful)

'Personality' Stats   Some stats (food preferences) are set at birth and only exposed through the thoughts screen.
        Appearance (Including body types and body type preference)
        Personality Quirks (Same as body types)
        Mental Fortitude (Hardening goes up, Sanity goes down, but there's an innate resistance to change)
       

*    I'm not endorsing any of these up here, this is just what has been brought up. 
**  Please note that nobody is suggesting all of these at once.  Consensus thus far seems to be a Trio of Trinary stats (3 physical, 3 mental, 3 social) with no extra magical stats
*** Personality Stats were added because some of the discussions lean towards them or associate with them

Code: [Select]

Original post follows:

Right now we have 3 stats, Str, Con, and Agi.  They are all physical attributes.

It's pretty much a given that there'll be more in the future.  Anybody have any ideas for what should be added?

I've mentioned before that I like the White Wolf system, with it's three stats for Mental, Physical and Social attributes.

Also, there could be magic stats.  Magical Power(Damage Modifier), Magical Understanding(Number of Spells?), Magical Stamina (Analgous to Mana).  Sure dwarves would have crap for these stats (Am I the only one that would like to see different starting levels compared to the rais you're playing?  (I.E. Goblins start as 'Weak' when viewed from a Dwarf, but 'Strong' but viewed from a Kobold.)

Anyway, I'm curious what ya'll think?


[Tormy]

Well for a magic/spell system we will probably need to have mana to be implemented.
So I guess intelligence/wisdom will be a must have for example.
Now, int/wis should be a factor that how much mana X creature has, and that how powerful the creature's spells are.
..but there is another way to implement magic, and mana wouldnt be needed at all: "memorize spells system" like in D&D.
In that case wis/int should be a simple "empowering" factor.

[korora]

Seeing as DF has already ditched the health bar trope, I see no reason for it to follow the rest of the genre and use mana.  Instead I imagine that casting spells will make you more tired, like everything else, and this exertion will depend on one or more of the magic stats.

If we keep the adjective system, the stats should come in pairs, like Strong/Weak or Agile/Clumsy, where no adjective is average.

[Granite26]

Seeing as DF has already ditched the health bar trope, I see no reason for it to follow the rest of the genre and use mana.  Instead I imagine that casting spells will make you more tired, like everything else, and this exertion will depend on one or more of the magic stats.

Yeah, that's why I like a magical stamina stat.  I'm also a big fan of separating magical prowess from mental prowess.  There's enough going on to support them both.  (Unlike, say.... D&D??)

[Dae]

We should try to find some new way. Taking a D&D system for everything that looks like a RPG from 6 miles away happens way too often.

Separating social stats from physical ones is needed. I don't think we should start talking about magic, since we don't have a clue what it'll be and so we'd be wasting our time.

The current strength, toughness and agility sums it up well for me. Perhaps we should try to stick with a trinity of stats as well (just for aesthetics).
About social stats, they should reveal how a unit is perceived without describing anything definitive, since they would progress. In this view, I don't think a "good/bad looking" one would make sense.

There should be one for the ability to talk people into whatever you want, that would distinct shy people from public speakers.
I'm think of another one that would make a difference about your overall looks : between threatening, normal and trustworthy people.
I think the last one should reflect your ability to play a role, to look far from your two other stats.

Hell, now I'm thinking it just stick too much on the social skills... only the first one still sort of makes sense. I'm leaving what I wrote in case it gives someone a good idea, but I'm disappointed. This post is not useful.

[Granite26]

White Wolf's social stats are Charisma (Likeability), Manipulation (Do what I want) and Appearance.

I get what you're saying about appearance not changing.  It's also just not that important.  With DF, maybe separate Manipulation and Leadership stats?

Social interactions would then be manipulating other people by 1. You like me, 2. You trick me, and 3. You command me. 

different dwarves(people in general) would be susceptible to different things.  Urist likes to be sweet talked, Cog can be reasoned with, and Merg respects a commanding presence. 

Then lying would be tied to Manipulation, flatery to Charisma, etc.

What about mental stats?  Engineering skills (Mechanics and Architecture), Alchemy, Brokering, Bookkeeping and a few other things seem to require smarts.  What do we want to see represented there?  Any ways to make smarter better?

[Mephansteras]

I can see two, maybe three mental stats. Creativity and Detail (or Focus). Engineering might require both, book keeping just Detail. Crafting would probably need both. Poetry might just require creativity. Memory is a possible third. Maybe used for Lore, or Alchemy?

In general, mental stats are interesting in that you can usually do a good job with either Creativity or attention to detail, and a masterful job usually requires both.

[CJN]

Adding Intelligence and Charisma would make sense.
On the other hand, Wisdom  would not be useful, since we all know that it would be zero for all dwarves.

[Silverionmox]

What about mental stats?  Engineering skills (Mechanics and Architecture), Alchemy, Brokering, Bookkeeping and a few other things seem to require smarts.  What do we want to see represented there?  Any ways to make smarter better?

I'd say logic, analysis/perception, wit/intuition and memory.

Analysis/perception: turning sensory data into useful knowledge. game effect: learning, spotting inconsistencies in people as well as in constructions and crafts, deciphering texts,...

Logic: abstract thinking and argumentation. game effect: good for judges, priests, lawmakers; anything math-heavy too (mechanics, carpenters, etc.)

Wit/intuition: big picture thinking and subconscious learning. Game effects: sense of humour, designing large constructions, fast reactions as well as long-term planning, ...

Memory: remembering stuff, or not. simple.

Much depends on the magic system indeed. I would avoid a memorizing spells system, because that is very restrictive, and you'll end up with thousands of spells, that will interact unpredictably and unbalancing. Mana-based spellcasting isn't fun either, because it leads easily to obsessive stat-pumping.
I think that the best way to avoid that is to make sure spell power varies with factors outside the control of the player (the seasons, the time of the day, the direction of the wind, praying people, vicinity of water, height above sea level, etc.), that at the same time allow a lot of improvisation in shaping the actual effects of the magic (for example, if you conjure fire, you may as well conjure a fire triangle, ring, or spiral - no need to stick with balls).

In other words, to bring this back to topic, magic power should have very little connection with player stats. That way, it will also be possible to set of magical effects accidentally by a complete dimwit.

[Tormy]

Adding Intelligence and Charisma would make sense.
On the other hand, Wisdom  would not be useful, since we all know that it would be zero for all dwarves.

Well even if thats true or not, imho we still need to have something like wisdom also..not specifically for dwarves, but for other races, or even for modded in races it would be excellent to have.

Seeing as DF has already ditched the health bar trope, I see no reason for it to follow the rest of the genre and use mana.

Yes that is true, but there is an alternate way to handle spells. We dont need to have mana at all, casters should just memorize spells like in D&D.
Intelligence and/or wisdom should be still important in way. Creatures with high int/wis should have more type of spells from a given spell school + for example DD [direct damage] spells should scale with int/wis. [IE: caster has low int = fireball dmg is low; caster has high int = fireball dmg is high]
Also gear should be restricted for casters to make everything balanced. Hm I guess that I started to explain a magic system in this thread. 

Im gonna add this topic to the master list of suggestions.

[Neonivek]

Let me see...

Intelligence: Improves mental tasks such as reading speed, learning speed from mentoring, and inventing
Charisma: Aids in Social activities and Art
Perception: Increases line of sight, increase chance to notice things,

There we go!

There should only be as many attributes as there needs to be... So far I don't see much that really contitutes more then what I put there.

-Why Would Dwarf Fortress need Wits or even memory? Have Intelligence umbrella all that...
-As for Appearance... That is static and not improved thus it is a trait and not an stat.
-Wisdom is usually used as another form of Intelligence specifically for cunning races who would never be able to read, write, or speak. So it all depends on how Dwarf Fortress will define Intelligence.

[Granite26]

I edited the header to include what's come up so far.

I also added a few different Magic Stat systems.  Some of the talk of magic (in the Reqs) has been using it as a plot device rather than an extra weapon for the players.  As such, a component/ritual system is pretty useful.  It assumes extremely powerful, extremely slow magics.  (I.E. No fireballs, but if you kill the dragon and bring the wizard it's head, the wizard can spend three weeks casting a spell to rain fire from the sky on the goblin army)  Anyway, that system gives you plot devices (wizards ask for crazy shit), introduces oddity into the game (it's raining frogs!?!?).  A good balancer for that is to give wizards free firebolts (toned down arrows for no cost whatsoever.)

The second magic system is the old Star Wars system.  You can do the magic for free, it's just hard to do it.  (I.E. sure you can shoot lightning, but it's not that much more efficient than a good crossbow.  Sure you can control the king's mind, but Cleopatra over there is getting the same effect by flirting with him.)  Anyway, that's the Control/Sense/Alter system.  You get a list of effects (a la wrestling) and can try any of them as a standard action.

Mephansteras and Silverionmox... I can't really decide which of your mental suggestions I like more.  I like how they are completely original, and tied to the kinds of things dwarves do.

[Neonivek]

You want to stay away from two stats that will in the end up having the same effect.

The only reason combat gets away with it is because it makes a noticable difference even if the end effect is the same.

If you want creativity based stats... I guess I can think of a few (even though it goes against what I just said)
-Vision: The ability of a dwarf to picture what he wishes to create inside his head. (Effectively Creative Accuracy)
-Soul: The power the artist (Effectively Creative Strength)
-Muse: The Artists inspiration (Effectively Creative Stamina)

As for a Magic system... I have a three tier system in my mind

1st Tier: Mental Attributes
2nd Tier: Magical Talent and Focus (Magic based attributes)
3rd Teir: Resources (Giant Tower to focus magic, the support of gods, and ten thousand eternally burning candles)

Basically there are no homeless ultra-powerful wizards.

[Ascii Kid]

I picture something like:

Physical: Strength, Dex, Toughness

Mental: Learning (How quickly and how many skills are involved with the character, and the processing of raw information); Inspiration/Creativity (either name would be good; controls factors like quality or work, number of materials used in a job, even how fast they can complete a job); and Stability (madness seems to play an important role in this game, as does mood.  This could dictate the characters behavior in both areas)

Social: Relative Appearance (How attractive a character is to other members of his/her own race, which would not nessisarily have to be a scale like the rest of the stats, but a particular appearance number, to which other characters are attracted: ie. Shorty McLoveland loves dwarves who are appearance numbers 65, 76, and 98 (out of 100 different appearance types).  After you have the numbers you simply assign adjectives to them (ie. 1 - Stout, 2 - Rotund, 3 - Pock-Marked, 4 - Chistled. etc.) and the whole thing works naturally.  The higher the overall relative appearance is, the more traits the character has.  Dwarves who embody more of the traits that another finds attractive are more likely to attract, and if all the factors match up well, boom, romance starts.  Just like real life.  Also, a rare human/elf/goblin could find one particular RA number attractive and then you have the social setup for interspecial maddness.); Command (Military is important in the game aswell, and this would control everything from teaching to unit management to organizational skills; it could also function as manipulation, but with the broader sense of being less sneaky and more authoritative.); and Socializing (which would cover all other areas not addressed by the first two social skills.

As for magic, I would sudjest only two stats:
 Latentcy and Potentcy, with everything else covered by skills.  Latentcy would dictate the raw energy in a creature, and all creatures would have it (I think there's something to that affect already presetn in the raws), and it would determine the value of their sacfirice in terms of magical energy aquired.  In sentient beings it would also cap their magical power, functioning like a Mana pool mixed with a scale of exhaustion.  As you use your latentcy to fule magic you grow weaker, so that those with low latentcy can only cast a few spells without resorting to sacrfice, while those of greater levels can use it much more freely.  Potentcy would be your command over the forces unnatural, how well you shape them to your desire, and would tell how much of an affect you had.  Latentcy would limit potentcy and potentcy would limit magical knowledge.

I think the fewer stats you have involved in a game the better off you are, myself; the classic 6 or D&D or the 3x3 of White Wolf lasted so long because they where basic, but could but manipulated infinitely. 

[Granite26]

Neonivek:  I wasn't thinking a whole category of Creativity stats was needed, just that a single one to serve as a mental stat would be cool.  Specifically tied to Engraving, Statue Making, Images (leather images and whatever else), and potentially other crafts.  However, even if neither of us thinks that a Creativity catagory is necessary, I think you hit the correct points for a fleshed out system.

Ascii Kid:  Excellent call on the Stability.  It's already kind of tracked (doesn't really care about anything anymore), but a stat to make you more resistant to those changes would be neat.  I also like your core appearance system.  I'd forgotten that there are a large number of preset 'personality' stats that don't change.

Oh, and I'd like to reiterate:  I don't think that more than about 9 stats would be a good idea.  I'm just collecting a list of what stats would be cool, and more importantly, what stats would be useful for different tasks.  That's why I like Creativity.  Enough of what the dwarves do could be based on it that it becomes a valid thing to track.