Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Impaler[WrG]]

I've heard suggestions around an "apprentice" concept in which a more skilled dwarf takes on a less skilled one and ingresses the speed they acquire skills at.  I really like this concept as its got both a timer-period feel and a game play effect.  I think taking an apprentice should be possible without the guild master but the level different between Master and apprentice would need to be high with the Master at least at Master level before he takes an apprentice of his own volition, when ever two dwarfs talk their is a chance they will form such a relationship if conditions are right. 

But with a Guild Master the process is easier as its one of his jobs to facilitate these apprenticeships.  Low skill guild members (along with new members at the time they join) would meet with the GM and list themselves as available for apprenticeship, higher skill members do the same and request apprentices.  The level difference needed is now halved and the GM can assign the apprentice without direct contact between the two.

[Granite26]

I've heard suggestions around an "apprentice" concept in which a more skilled dwarf takes on a less skilled one and ingresses the speed they acquire skills at.  I really like this concept as its got both a timer-period feel and a game play effect.  I think taking an apprentice should be possible without the guild master but the level different between Master and apprentice would need to be high with the Master at least at Master level before he takes an apprentice of his own volition, when ever two dwarfs talk their is a chance they will form such a relationship if conditions are right. 

But with a Guild Master the process is easier as its one of his jobs to facilitate these apprenticeships.  Low skill guild members (along with new members at the time they join) would meet with the GM and list themselves as available for apprenticeship, higher skill members do the same and request apprentices.  The level difference needed is now halved and the GM can assign the apprentice without direct contact between the two.

Also, the traditional definition of masterwork is the work you produce to prove you're a master.  It should be required that you have produced a masterwork to be the head of the guild (or to be a voting member, or whatever).

[Techhead]

To prevent too many guilds from forming early on, there should be a minimum number of potential members before a guild is formed.
Also, to prevent dozens of guilds in later fortresses, guilds should be grouped by profession type, like farmers, stoneworkers, and craftdwarves.
I like that idea of masterworks for leader eligibility, but many jobs would be unable to have guilds. Professions with this problems are miners, farmers (excepting dyers and cooks), rangers (excepting trappers), and fisherdwarves.

[Othob Rithol]

House Olon, meaning Gear=Mechanics Guild. Would upkeep mechanisms efficently if item damage ever goes in

House Datan, meaning Iron=metal crafts Guild. Would be able to design special player desgnated Items for certain Dwarves-like your hero could get a gold amulet engraved with his killing of a Hydra.

Good names. I'll put them in.

@ Teldin: GMs historically mandate their guilds jobs. However a failed mandate would result in a guild member being punished, which made no sense at all. I threw the strike idea in as replacement for the misguided justice, and as a way to generate another fortress event. Just imagine the Fortress Guard getting skewered by a guild of disgruntled legendary miners.

@ Techhead: As you can see one of the "things to do" is determine the exact triggers for guild formation. I'm thinking post-baron, with atleast 6 members at proficient+.
The number of guilds is finite, since they are limited to job categories, not labors. IE - the yellow guys (bowyers, carps, wood cutters) can form ONE guild. The only group I'd keep out of the guild system is haulers: no teamsters here...the guild would end up being 85% of the fortress.

In General:

The benefits of being in the guild are that occasionally work will be mandated, pay will be increased by petition, and they should have increased social interaction within the guild.

The apprenticeships concept should probably be worked into the entire system, but particularly into the military orders. I'd lean towards making it a GM only activity. If this ever gets implemented there will be a time to bug Toady into making a more complex system.

To be eligible to join the guild you have to have the right classification/color: To join the Mason's Guild you have to be a white profession (yeah bad example) : either a mason or an engraver. Thus a dwarf can only be in one guild at a time.

I'm not going to suggest adding in anything real complex like dynamic economic models, guild treasuries, dues etc. I want this to come as close to the 2D GMS as possible, but with more utility.

I don't think an automatic, outright attack on a non-guild dwarf during a strike (or not) is warranted. Having a negative social bias (develop a grudge) seems more fitting. Guild dwarves should dislike it when non-guild dwarves do a guild labor. Grudge turns to hatred and at a bad moment the lone wolf gets smacked with a obsidian mug. I'll rely on Toady to flesh out the relationship system as he has planned.

[Dae]

Dozen of guilds are good. You can help the ones you want and disadvantage the other ones, so they won't be much of a trouble. Anyway, they won't really be dozen, perhaps 5 or 6 at the most.

Let's suppose the mayor helps a little too much a guild you don't want, he would have an accident.  Same for that GM.

A minimum skilled members looks good.
On the other hand, I'm not convinced by that masterwork thing. Having it needed for creating a guild seem a little harsh.
I think a good compromise would be to elect the Guild Master in a normal situation, but as soon as a guild member is set apart from the rest of members thanks to his skills (by creating an artifact, doing a masterwork, becoming legendary, ...) he automatically becomes GM.

Othob, largely agreed about nothing automatic. It doesn't really fit DF anyway, whereas increasing the chance of a random event gets along just fine.

By the way, assigning rooms to a function and not to a dwarf is really - REALLY - badly needed.

[Granite26]

I still think that making a masterwork item serves as a good barrier to creation.  It ensures that the profession is active, and there aren't just 16 dwarves with the labor turned on.

I also think that it would make a good delimiter for who forms guilds and who doesn't.  (Who ever heard of a farmer's guild?)

I STRONGLY dislike division by 'color'.  Cooks shouldn't be lumped in with Dyers, it makes no sense.  (Although if Farming got broken up, I'd be happy with that.  Put Dyers, Clothiers, Weavers and Prostitutes into their own Seamstress' Guild?  Cyan isn't used, is it?)

Finally, if you wanted groups for the non-trade groups ('real' farmers, haulers, etc), call them unions.  Functionally the same, but without the masterwork requirement and a lower (or just different) barrier to entry.

[Othob Rithol]

I also think that it would make a good delimiter for who forms guilds and who doesn't.  (Who ever heard of a farmer's guild?)

Toady and any 2D DF player.

I STRONGLY dislike division by 'color'.  Cooks shouldn't be lumped in with Dyers, it makes no sense.  (Although if Farming got broken up, I'd be happy with that.  Put Dyers, Clothiers, Weavers and Prostitutes into their own Seamstress' Guild?  Cyan isn't used, is it?)

Again Toady did it, not me. My suggestion is about Guild Masters (and the absolutely bare minimum support structures for the guilds), not about resorting the professions.

[Jamini]

My only main objection to this idea is that certain colors (the brown farmer color in particular) do not necessarily lump the right dwarves together. Dyers have far more in common with weavers than they do with planters, and Wood Burners fit much more neatly into the smiths than they do with threshers.Seeing as I would probably be a proud owner of a House Istrath currently, I feel that having their special ability be the ability to make gem crafts like crowns and such at-will (rather than occurring semi-randomly not unlike Large Gems, as it does currently) would be appropriate.

Either way, the Istrath guild master should have cut gem windows as one of their demands.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Real life unions were not necessarily or even usually vertically integrated (Wood Burners with Smiths.) Longshoremen and teamsters, for example. I think it would make the game interesting if your farmer guild strike bottlenecked your smiths guild who in turn got pissed off.

[Dame de la Licorne]

I think it would make the game interesting if your farmer guild strike bottlenecked your smiths guild who in turn got pissed off.

And then the military would get involved due to the lack of proper weapons/armor...I like!  We have got to get this added.

[Othob Rithol]

Techhead has a good thread running on that issue right now here

I agree with the lack of logic, but we have to keep in mind the game is WIP.

My proposal would of course have to comply with any job grouping changes that are made.

I'm keeping it as is to avoid confusion (like a farming (brown) job ending up governed by a craft guild).

[MMad]

Hey, cool thread! And fun ideas. I'd love more useful nobles.

I agree with whoever thought the "division based on color" was too simplistic, at least the current division. I'd love if color correlated with guild, but right now it would just be odd - brown "farmer" dwarves do way to many different things, and several different kinds of craftsdwarves could probably be merged into one. A division based on output (i.e. "food", "cloth/leather products", "trading goods") might be more intuitive.

A few more thoughts:

New immigrants and other eligible dwarves will be asked to a meeting by the GM to discuss joining.  Failing to join damages the social standing of that dwarf with all guild members. Invitational meetings will be scheduled each time the dwarf rises in a guild skill. The negative social impact is cumulative.

This is a little unclear to me. What should affect a dwarf's chance to join? Also, if non-guild members are still allowed to practise their craft (in fact required to), why would the guild want to reject anyone? Traditionally guild were all about establishing a monopoly. Forcing everyone to join and then seperating them between Masters and Apprentices would make more sense, imo.

The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft) - Light Blue - Adds a CRAFT tab to the Stones menu. This guild needs more abilities.

Perhaps the ability to define more exactly what kinds of crafts to produce? So you can maximize your profit when the humans are willing to pay 160% for earrings, for example. Although this is perhaps almost strange in its absence already.

The Military Orders - Order of the ____ (Weapon) - varied - Serve as instructors, leading their squads in training (improved skill gain, less injury)

Isn't this already kind of covered by the Captain of the Guard? Although I guess it might make some sense to seperate the Fortress Guard (police force) from the rest of the military (defensive army) I can't say I'd be a huge fan of the idea. However, one thing I'd really like is for the Captain to be able to give me a report on the current state of the forces.

Suppose I have three squads of 5 each - A, B and C. I order everyone in A to equip crossbows, leather armor and waterskins, everyone in B to equip axes, plate armor, backpacks and waterskins and everyone in C to fight unarmed in plate armor and with shields. The Captain would keep track of how his troops are supplied and would be able to tell me stuff like the following:

"15 dwarves are ordered to sleep in the barracks, but there are only 8 beds.
10 dwarves are ordered to carry water, but we only have 6 waterskins.
5 dwarves are ordered to use crossbows, but we only have 4 quivers.
5 dwarves are ordered to equip plate armor, but we only have 1 helm.
5 dwarves are ordered to equip plate armor, but we have no greaves.
We are running low on practice bolts, we only have 28 bolts left.
We have run out of rations."

This kind of smart reporting would help enormously when managing an army and would make it easy to figure out deficiencies and shortages. Furthermore, you should be able to specify "exceptional steel plate or better only" to stop dwarves carrying (turtle shell helm) and (bronze battle axe) and stuff like that. Or they could just be smart enough to upgrade their equipment on their own..

[Impaler[WrG]]

How I would split up the Professions AND the skill classes

Mining - Miner, Hypothetical Geologist, Architect
Stone workers - Engraver, Mason, Hypothetical Stonecutter (takes the stone furniture tasks from Mason), Stone crafter
Wood worker - Bowyer, Carpenter, Wood crafter, Wood cutter
Ranger - Ambush, Animal Caretaker, Trainer, Milker, Butcher, Fisher
Smith - Armor, Weapon, Blacksmith, Smelter, Metal crafter
Crafter - Bone Carver, Clothier, Glass maker, Leather worker, Strand Extractor, Gem Cutter, Gem Setter
Farmer - Grower, Miller, Thresher, Brewer, Cook, Herbalist
Laborer - Tanner, Dyer, Lye & Potash (possibly merged), Soaper, Weaver, Wood Burner, Fish Cleaner, Trapper
Engineer - Engineer, Siege Engineer
Alchemists - Hypothetical Alchemist, Hypothetical Magic
Porter - This is are all the Haulers go and if we ever get Wagons this is ware wagon driver would go

Siege Operator move to the military, Pump Operator should go into the Porter group.

[Othob Rithol]

I'll say it again. I'm not writing a suggestion to rework what skill goes where, or who does what. That can be found in this thread.

Why based on profession category (aka color)? Because that is exactly the way Toady did it. If he wants to do it another way, so be it. It is his game. As you can see in the very same thread I agree with a lot of the logic here.

But this thread is about GMs. To discuss skills/job groupings go to this thread.

To end the debate I am removing all references in the suggestion to how the guild will be organized or how the GM is selected. It is now a list of abilities.

but wait: those abilities are based and sorted by ....the existing job categories in game.... better wipe them too.

[Dame de la Licorne]

Thanks Impaler, you just completely hijacked/killed a perfectly good thread.     Did you by any chance post in the wrong place?