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[BlazingDav]

Temperature detection probably demands scientific knowledge on expansion of solids and matter changing states that dwarves wouldn't have. Arguably their knowledge of metals could provide solutions to these and as stated they might easily be able to use cinnabar to access mercury and experiment with it enough to develop a primitive thermometer. Then using mechanical intuition create a mechnical response to large changes in temperature.

Really though deciding what dwarves should know and what they can observe and understand is important for deciding their technological capabilities.

For instance arguments around the Baghdad battery and early electrics often required liquids like brine, citric acid and other special chemically special liquids. (For lack of better words, or is acid the one im looking for?). Dwarves would have the pots, the iron the copper, but the liquids often come from above ground exploits (except for underground farming of citrus fruits maybe debatably), neither do they have the electric bearing critters to study and understand their special properties. (Add thunder critters of the deep... you know you want to....). Dwarves wouldn't have the means all the materials to do it typically, let alone the chance to experiment and understand. And these basic forms of electricity is what was required to observe how electricity and magnetism are linked which led to electricity production and use as we know it today. Electricity would only be available to dwarves via a fantasy element. (literally or a game feature)

Static electricity also has been observed in many different situations from rubbing amber and fur together, but nobody ever came up with useful applications for that anyway and amber is met by dwarves that go topside for wood, but towercap shrooms would be the more probable wood source in cities where life is comfortable enough to experiment and sit down thinking about stuff. Lightning is something dwarves would know of, but being dwellers of the deep it probably scares them more than it does humans. Being able to create lightning by rubbing stuff together would be dwarfy fun though. (Fur cog and amber cog ftw!)

But anyway a dwarven CV wouldnt be a bad idea for approaching the steam debate, some thoughts on dwarven qualifications:

Dwarves though presumably are gifted craftsman and know how to manipulate shape and form most anything you give them except maybe materials quite foreign to them. They are masters of metal working and can make steel, but their more important display of metal working is admantium, simply the best metal that seperates the dwarves in metal working from the rest. (As if steel wasn't enough). Quite simply a good display of dwarven ability with metal. (Interstingly alot of trouble in early industrialisation was quality of the metals they used I think). Dwarves are also supposed to be mechanically minded as well as having a close relationship to everything in a mountain. (Except maybe cave spiders).

They easily have the materials and ability to build a steam engine if they knew what they were doing, establishing if they would have the understanding of compressed gasses and forces they exert

In part though I understand the caution with holding back from approaching what could be a very slippery slope though, its not just what people would ask for, but the existence of steam engines in the game might get it labelled as a steam punk fantasy game to those that don't know it so well which I don't know but am guessing is not the perception Toady wants for DF. Vanilla content can ultimately determine the image of the game.

Though a simple way around this and leaving it up to modders would be what has been suggested before a little earlier, device modding. They have inputs, then have outputs, to a certain extent special buildings with a fixed reactions and how it connects to other buildings. (or kinds of buildings). This I like the idea of very much it allows those seeking to create more complicated systems to make the content enabling that to do it themselves, it even opens up the possibility of steam engines by the input simply being fuel set alight and the output steam which goes into some system converting it to the desired output.

---

Also on the notes of communication I like sound pipes, though I'd say they should probably have a fixed range. Though other ideas would be mechanical flags that can be mechanically programmed to give signals and when a dwarf familiar with it sees the action goes off and does a desired action. For example a flag triggered means that a resivoir is empty and needs filling up, a dwarf familiar with the flag sees it and goes off to pull a lever and activates a pump that fills it up and is then switched off once the resivoir is full. (For example if you are controlling downward flow of water into your fortress for a well and don't want to flood the fort).

Also on that note in mechanics for a little more

[RAM]

And I am sure that dwarves could figure out mechiacal sensors for significant effects like freezing and boiling if they encounter it on a regular basis, it shouldn't be that hard to have a cog that doesn't work if the water it is in is frozen, or a beam that won't decend into a pit unless the water in it boils away...

[NW_Kohaku]

For steam, people have pointed out that simply using a magma-proof pipe filled with water, and running it through magma would be a really, really simple way to make some good ol' renewable geothermal steam energy.  Seriously, if they can make a turbine that spins when water flows past it, they can make one when steam flows past it, it's not THAT complex, although they should probably be upgrading even their water turbines up to screw turbines rather than big cluncky wheels.  (It is, after all, what their screw pumps are based upon, so it's not like they can't.)

Of course, steam basically just spins a turbine, the same as a waterwheel, which we can already set up in arrays that generate almost infinite energy.  As much as the word "Steampunk" gets thrown around, actually using steam to turn a turbine instead of a river wouldn't mean much without more that you could plug into the energy, or without making it something like a portable comustion engine that can be the powerplant of a large, artificially constructed "creature". As long as a steam power generator is an immobile building, it's not going to be functionally any different from a "dwarven reactor" powered by screw pumps and waterwheels.  What will really determine how steampunk we get are what sorts of nifty little "technix" style legos we get to put into our lego collection to build the REALLY fancy machinery.

(Of course, now that we are supposedly going to get moving fortress parts, I'm betting SOMEONE is going to be able to build a "Dwarven Mecha" that is powered by its own internal waterwheels and multiple lifts that can be swiveled horizontally that work as "feet", and is capable of vomiting magma down upon goblins below, and then subsequently refueling its magma supplies, steam or no steam.)

Electricity should probably be thrown straight out.  It's pretty obvious most things built with electricity are WELL after the 14th century cutoff date.  The absolute most you might be able to squeek by would be using electrolysis to make some certain types of alloys, although it's not like most alloys that you could make with electrolysis would really even matter in DF, where metal doesn't really even corrode, anyway.

[Starver]

Temperature detection probably demands scientific knowledge on expansion of solids and matter changing states that dwarves wouldn't have.

"I don't understand it," commented Urist McManager, "when the lads fit magmasafe mechanical linkages and devices into areas that get submerged in magma, all the tolerances go to pot."  McManager sweeps a stare around his workshop, continuing, "But I know for a fact that my lads are all High Master technicians, and I've even checked a few of the items meself."

A few weeks later: "Hey, guv, you know that problem we had.  It seems that the different metals tend expand consistently with themselves, and consistently differently rates to others.  Now, I've had a couple of ideas.  One is to set up linkages composed of three bars of one metal connected by a couple of bars of another, sort of like in the other direction... if we do it with the right metals and the right ratio of lengths, the whole thing'll stay the same length no matter what.  The other idea is to actually put two bars together side-by-side... we'd probably have to rivet them together... then the bar would warp and actually bend according to how hot the assembly is.  First thoughts were that we'd use that to adjust the crank-handles, but what if actually we cranked it through a gear assembly and used it to push a lever..."

"Use?  What do you mean use?  This is Blue Earth Research we're talking here... Something to keep some of the younger lads busy.  I mean, anything to keep them away from those darned parties at the statue park, draining our beer stocks and then having to turn to the soft stuff when it all runs out.  I lose more dwarf-hours to the lost productivity of hangunders than anything else, barring mountain goats wandering past those darned ineffectual guards at the Depot entrance and causing all those panics.  And, besides, you know what we managed to accomplish after accidentally building that waterwheel that fed itself all day long.  Who knows what useful gadget we'll come up with this time!"


(Anyway, I thought I'd already mentioned Cinnabar, somewhere, I think in the context of "Hooray, at last a use for...".  But bimetallic strips would probably be the easiest.  Without actually checking the physics data book that I have at home, I'm guess that brass and aluminium might be a good pairing.  Though not entirely sure how magma-safe that would be, so that combination might only work (more than once!) on a measuring device that is set to work by being placed on the 'safe' side of an occasionally magma-bordered wall on the safe-side.)

[NW_Kohaku]

Once again, I don't see why it matters whether it is technologically possible to make devices that detect magma based on temperature when it would only be redundant as we already have pressure plates that detect magma. 

Why are we arguing over how best to reinvent the wheel here?

[BlazingDav]

I was thinking of applying such a thing to a 'sprinkler' system in the event of a fire. Though yeah main application in a safe fort towards firey critters and magma, both of which can be detected now. (except maybe fire breath and fireballs). The reverse with freezing would be cold weather and critters, systems to react to lakes freezing. (if you get your water from them for example). Or detecting freezing critters, which can be done. (The lake freezing actually sounds like a decent use for those that mechanise to solve problems in complicated fashions). A general concern though is that such devices would be very specialised to responding to certain temperatures

Otherwise I'd agree it would be reinventing the wheel, still an interesting thing to have for the sake of it though, like having a flow/pressure sensor too would be fun. (For controlling flow of water across z-levels I'd guess). Generally useless, but debatably so is all advanced mechanics that has been done too. Technically as well the way pressure plates differentiate between water and magma may already use this technology anyway =P (Toady always beats us to this stuff it seems).

The dwarf talk made me laugh though, makes sense to us and really if a civillisation has knowledge and ability and observes something long enough they should be able to work something out. Its why I side on dwarves having access to basic steam power at least, between them also living underground and in future I hope DF will create a need to circulate air as fortresses get deeper and more complicated so increases chances of stagnant oxygen poor air. Between understanding air flow, witnessing steam, having ample resources and ability to make the systems its quite plausible for them to do it.

Combustion engines I would disagree with though, they simply have no need of it underground, they would just use their steam engines and cranks to move stuff around at most and in a 3 dimensional world that is living underground. (ours being 2D by comparison). There would be no sensible standalone system of engine and moving parts to help dwarven life. Boats can be tugged up and down rivers by boats. (when dwarves encounter them underground anyway). And boats are as close as it would get I imagine with a possible need to traverse large bodies of water, (underground?), with no way to walk around them, and particularly wide ones may warrant fast crossings, but are too expensive for mechanised boats to be cranked across them.

So I see dwarves as having no more than basic steam turbines (have an irritating tendency to want to call them steam engines =P). And them never reaching electricity (Only DF race I see doing it is humans, but maybe gobos if they got their act together)

---

The idea of giant screws as a replacement water wheel sounds interesting though, only it would create power in front of behind it such as the direction of water flowing through it would be, though it would work and probably be decently more efficent as well.

Another stray thought relating to tech trees and such though, would be interesting if requirements to a civ developing new technology x were developed though, such as easy access to list of resources y for z years and then have the birth of a particularly bright individual a encountering scenario b, (such as a war, a problem, scientific observation, a business opportunity) that can teach/need technology x whilst having access to list of resources y. Not many things could be applied, but would provide interesting modding opportunities and be an interesting plot element for adventuring when you encounter these inventors on the verge of success. I would suggest only putting bonuses there or procedurally generated 'goodies', but would be an interesting plot element for adventure mode.

[Uristocrat]

Once again, I don't see why it matters whether it is technologically possible to make devices that detect magma based on temperature when it would only be redundant as we already have pressure plates that detect magma. 

Why are we arguing over how best to reinvent the wheel here?

It's useful to have devices that detect heat/fire (not just magma) for the reasons others have given and it makes no sense that pressure plates can differentiate between magma and water, so *removing* that ability from pressure plates and creating a temperature trigger would, arguably, make more sense.

This is Dwarf Fortress.  We'd still try to make an improved wheel, even if it were crafted out of that 2000-z adamantium spire and was magma-powered.

Incidentally, as to the age of the inventions, while there's nothing like a thermometer until the 1600s, I was able to trace the development of temperature-sensitive devices back to at least the first century:

"Philo of Byzantium and Hero of Alexandria  knew of the principle that certain substances, notably air, expand and contract and described a demonstration in which a closed tube partially filled with air had its end in a container of water.[1] The expansion and contraction of the air caused the position of the water/air interface to move along the tube."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermometer

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_of_Byzantium

Actually, those guys are interesting in their own right for other reasons:
"Philon's works also contain the oldest known application of a chain drive in a repeating crossbow. Two flat-linked chains were connected to a windlass, which by winding back and forth would automatically fire the machine's arrows until its magazine was empty."

Repeating crossbows?  In the first century!?  Hmmm.....

[Lord Shonus]

The repeating crossbow is actually much older than that. Philo simply improved it a good deal.

[BlazingDav]

Saw a thread about nets and figured we should have net traps as well, with the option of dropping the net on the victim or pulling them up in one.

And further thoughts remind me about the issue of traps being illogically hidden in plain sight. People who set the traps should hide the traps using other skills to get the trap to fit into the surroundings from some stonework to plant gathering.

Enemies should also have a range of checks to find traps, for example if they can see properly whether it means not being blind or being able to see in the dark. If they have the knowledge and attention span to spot details in the environment that would give away the traps, if they identify the trap then they can try to jump over it, move around it or disarm it.

Also repeating crossbows sound fun, but if crossbows are ever supposed to be effective then these would be an artifact by comparison.

[NW_Kohaku]

The crossbows we have now operate as if they were self-cocking gattling crossbows fed by a chain feed to the quiver.  Basically, the BS crossbow you see if you watch the awful Van Hellsing movie.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://steelcloset.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/van-helsing-crossbow.jpg

[RAM]

Crossbows are hand-driven, so they are all working with the same total energy. Increase the rate of fire and you reduce the energy given to each shot...

[BlazingDav]

Maybe the repeating crossbow would be a good excuse to fix the crossbow then, for example introducing the idea of a firing speed and a clips and clip sizes, then a clip reload time. Crossbows would have a clip of one, so adding their firing speed to that would make them slower per shot, but if you could modify range as well as power then it'd mean that the repeating crossbow would be makeable. Once made it'd fire faster, but probably take longer to reload and have lower range and power. Naturally the repeating crossbow would have to be made anyway to justify it =P

Though I don't doubt it beyond the ability of Dwarves to come up with it, they could even do a repeating ballista, (I know its just like a bigger crossbow, but that can still present issues on occasion). Its a matter of if they'd find tactical use for them, I can't think of many for the repeating crossbow beyond ambushes and hit and runs, which we as players could engineer. Though that may be thinking too much about it =P

[iron_general]

For steam, people have pointed out that simply using a magma-proof pipe filled with water, and running it through magma would be a really, really simple way to make some good ol' renewable geothermal steam energy.  Seriously, if they can make a turbine that spins when water flows past it, they can make one when steam flows past it, it's not THAT complex, although they should probably be upgrading even their water turbines up to screw turbines rather than big cluncky wheels.  (It is, after all, what their screw pumps are based upon, so it's not like they can't.)

Of course, steam basically just spins a turbine, the same as a waterwheel, which we can already set up in arrays that generate almost infinite energy.  As much as the word "Steampunk" gets thrown around, actually using steam to turn a turbine instead of a river wouldn't mean much without more that you could plug into the energy, or without making it something like a portable comustion engine that can be the powerplant of a large, artificially constructed "creature". As long as a steam power generator is an immobile building, it's not going to be functionally any different from a "dwarven reactor" powered by screw pumps and waterwheels.  What will really determine how steampunk we get are what sorts of nifty little "technix" style legos we get to put into our lego collection to build the REALLY fancy machinery.

(Of course, now that we are supposedly going to get moving fortress parts, I'm betting SOMEONE is going to be able to build a "Dwarven Mecha" that is powered by its own internal waterwheels and multiple lifts that can be swiveled horizontally that work as "feet", and is capable of vomiting magma down upon goblins below, and then subsequently refueling its magma supplies, steam or no steam.)

Electricity should probably be thrown straight out.  It's pretty obvious most things built with electricity are WELL after the 14th century cutoff date.  The absolute most you might be able to squeek by would be using electrolysis to make some certain types of alloys, although it's not like most alloys that you could make with electrolysis would really even matter in DF, where metal doesn't really even corrode, anyway.

I haven't read all 25 page of this conversation so sorry if someone already suggested this. What if a type of steam furnace (worshop) could be built out of stone, a screw pump a turbine (or another pump if we're not to concerned about the physics) atop a water soucre (say two full chaneled tiles). Any dwarf could stoke the fire/add fuel a few times per month to keep it running. thus power could be produced anywhere without perpetual motion machines.

[iron_general]

Sorry for the akward placement, I could not find the posting I wanted to quote. With regards to weapon traps I think the should act as ambushers to the enemy (invisible untill discoverd), and goblins should be capable of jaming them with their own weapons, items etc. I also support th notion that they need be powered, I propose that each weapon trap have some sort of crank attached or lever attached (to produce tension on a spring, though that might not need to be included). After a trap is spung it must be reset, a jammed trap would require many resets. I also support limiting the max. number of weapon to 3, otherwise they're overpowered.

[RAM]

I don't feel that balancing is appropriate in this thread, it can involve a long and painful discussion and this thread is meant to be reviewed from time to time...

You could search the thread for the word steam...

Steam power is a long and arduous topic which has already consumed multiple threads, although I suppose that a fuel-based power supply might be worth a single entry...

whilst seeing a trap attack would probably reveal its presence, if the effect was permanent it would just mean that people would have to disassemble and rebuild their traps after every siege, may reset all traps' ambush status whenever an assault ends. Being able to deliberately jam traps may also be valid. A power supply to a trap would only make sense if the trap was automatically reset, people have been making single-action traps forever. But this thread is mostly for new additions, rather than tweaks.