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[Granite26]

I *think* that goal is to simulate a eurocentric, Tolkienesque, High medieval world (in vanilla), which Gunpowder and Steampunk break.

That being said, I like the idea of being able to build these things (much like 1400's European's COULD have) but having them be less efficient that, say, having haulers do the work.

Things like mechanisms breaking down would add to that a lot.  (easier to let the haulers self maintain than to manage the mechanics fixing everything all the time)

That said, some of the technologies are apocryphal.  Not everybody (including me) believes the bagdad battery was REALLY used for electro-plating.  However, I also think that this is a fantasy game, and dwarves could use it.

also Prague:  Guns and Cannons are period, the just aren't in theme

[praguepride]

Well...that depends on what you consider "period."

They did have cannons during the hundred year war (not guns mind you, but cannons to blast rocks at castles).

HOWEVER what if the "real world equivalent" year was much earlier then that? What if we're talking 1100's?

Maybe dwarves ARE that technologically advanced because they have crossbows and plate mail, but overall the rest of the world is still dark ages, not high medieval.

[Granite26]

'Period' is officially up to around 1400 AD, unofficially:

I *think* that goal is to simulate a eurocentric, Tolkienesque, High medieval world (in vanilla)

[praguepride]

'Period' is officially up to around 1400 AD

C/D?? Where's the Toady post for proof!

[OverrideB1]

That said, some of the technologies are apocryphal.  Not everybody (including me) believes the bagdad battery was REALLY used for electro-plating.  However, I also think that this is a fantasy game, and dwarves could use it.

Current thinking (if you'll forgive the pun) is that there's not a lot else they could have been used for. Experiments have shown that - at best - a single Babylon Battery generates ~0.3V. Pretty much useless for anything other than electro-plating... SLOW electro-plating at that.

However, consider the effect. You handed your Shekel (or whatever) to the priests and got, in return, a plain copper disc. This was then miraculously "converted" into silver or gold by the "holy water". (There have been some suggestions that this process may be the "truth" behind the myth of the Philosopher's Stone which obsessed alchemists for centuries. :shrugs: Who can say?)

[Granite26]

I don't think there's even a consensus that it was used to generate current. 

[praguepride]

No one really knows because actual use of it has not been documented. People found ancient devices that, when filled with the right substances generates electricity.

[Qmarx]

No one really knows because actual use of it has not been documented. People found ancient devices that, when filled with the right substances generates electricity.

Actually, you'd have to modify the design as well.  As discovered, the so called "Baghdad battery" could not be used to generate a voltage difference.

[OverrideB1]

No one really knows because actual use of it has not been documented. People found ancient devices that, when filled with the right substances generates electricity.

I'm not subscribing to the theory that the Baghdad battery/Parthian Battery/Babylon battery was actually used for electro-plating: it's just that it's very difficult to see what possible other use it might have had. Okay - you have to use several in an array to generate any useful current - even for electro-plating. But Babylonian Flashlights or a motorised Ashur? I think not

Actually, you'd have to modify the design as well.  As discovered, the so called "Baghdad battery" could not be used to generate a voltage difference.

No - as they current stand, the design generates a very weak electrical force when the jar is filled with an acidic liquid. No redesign required

However, discussion of what the Babylon Batteries were used for is kind of off the point. I was simply using them (amongst other examples) to point out that certain "technologies" predate the 1400's and should not, therefore, automatically be dismissed as "too modern" to be included in DF.

[praguepride]

But on the flipside, DaVinci invented tanks and flying machines in the late 1400's as well, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense to just throw those in as well.

Beyond mechanical devices there is no solid foundation for things like steam power or electricity. It just wasn't a widespread technology. People used wind and water and that was more then enough.

This isn't Warhammer, the Empire doesn't get Steam Tanks

[Qmarx]

"The bitumen completely covers the copper cylinder, electrically insulating it, so no current can be drawn without modifying the design"

The interpretation that they're storage vessels for scrolls is a lot more plausible.


After all, you'd get more current just by sticking electrodes directly into a lemon.

[G-Flex]

But on the flipside, DaVinci invented tanks and flying machines in the late 1400's as well, but that doesn't mean that it makes sense to just throw those in as well.

Right. People make two very flawed assumptions that I've noticed:

• If someone back then designed it, it must be period-appropriate! Not necessarily. A lot of things could have been designed or even used once or twice without being widespread in the least, and a lot of theoretical designs couldn't have even been produced at the time, or they weren't feasible to. See: da Vinci. Point is, sometimes dudes are thinking ahead of their time, and it's called that for a reason.
• If they theoretically had the technology required to assemble something, it also must be period-appropriate! Also wrong. A society's attitudes and knowledge about a thing are just as important. For instance, you could make a binary computer out of rocks if you felt like it and were really goddamn patient. That doesn't mean it would be period-appropriate for some game taking place in the stone age. Similarly, even if dwarves COULD make a design for a good steam engine, it doesn't mean they WOULD. It's easy to forget that we're speaking from the benefit of our own society and the knowledge and ideas that come with it. Another example: Number systems don't really take any technology or equipment at all to produce, but it still took Europe until some time in the Middle Ages (late Middle Ages probably) to actually start using a place-value number system or to accept zero as a number.

[Hectonkhyres]

After all, you'd get more current just by sticking electrodes directly into a lemon.

So... why don't we just have dwarves stick electrodes in lemons? Thousands of electrodes stabbing into thousands of lemons, all wired together into a massive electrical grid. GIANT lemons genetically engineered by a elven farmers with too much time on their hands. GIANT, GOBLIN-EATING ELECTRIC lemons genetically engineered by mad elven horticulturalists.
...
What? This fits the culture of Dwarf Fortress perfectly.

[Granite26]

His 'Period'~My 'Theme', so I agree with G-Flex, but I think that the answer is more efficiency flaws than 'stupid peasants'.

People already build Turing machines with water and pressure plates.  It's just not efficient enough to do anything useful. 

[praguepride]

'stupid peasants'.

This is why we can't have nice things in DF

We need moar nobles to dictate advanced technology!