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Author Topic: ranged combat too powerful  (Read 8828 times)

Granite26

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2008, 12:59:09 pm »

It is kinda suckish if you can walk through armies, slay dragons (Whos firebreath is easier to block then arrows), and survive having your legs chopped off by will alone... if you can be stopped by any Joe Shmo with a bow and arrow.

You are aware that in medieval, Pope Innocent II tried to ban the use of crossbow against knights because a simple Joe Shmo with a crossbow can bring down a fully armored, well trained knight?

Although yes, the firing rate should be drasitcally reduced for crossbow.  Nor should crossbow deal multiple internal injury.  Although crossbow should severely damage any organ they hit (a one shot kill if it hit any vital organ such as brain or heart).

That's a combat deadliness question as much as anything else.  For realism, sure, one shot should have a high kill chance.  For epicness?  You want to have your hero bristling.  For game balance?  You should be able to argue that crossbows are an important addition to a squad, but not a hands down superior force.

Neonivek

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2008, 05:19:13 pm »

To put in not as silly of words (I loved reading people's responses to my Rifle comment :D) the problem with Arrows and Crossbows are as follows (not all of them)

1) Armor Peircing: Armor should have more of an effect
-While certainly both of them more then have the ability to pierce armor and Crossbows can in fact go right though some wicked thick plate. It still has little noticable effect on ranged attack damage when realistically there is a good chance that Platemail for example could protect the user from several Crossbow attacks.

2) Damage: They do too much damage
-Quite easily... Not only do they do multiple organ strikes... they have an insane chance to strike a vital organ for tons of damage. Along with this they break the dramatic system by doing crippling damage as standard no matter who has fired on even the most superhuman adventurer/dwarf and even most Megabeasts.
--Think of it this way. Against Unarmored opponents where Bolts and Arrows should actually be less deadly then most weapons they are still top.
---Along with this, arrows and bolts thrown do too much damage.

3) Speed: They attack too quickly
-The Crossbow needs a lot of speed reduction and the Bow needs some. It could be changed by skill with one or the other.

After this things get iffy.

4) Block Chance: Single arrows shot at a person expecting it over a certain distance should be easier to block (or even dodge)... This is relative to how easy it is to block Dragon's breath at point blank (or any range). Though I guess it also should be easier to block/dodge at point blank as well.

5) Quality and Material Effect: Currently the quality of Bows and Crossbows as well as their material as no effect on damage or accuracy of their ranged attacks
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motorbitch

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2008, 05:55:05 pm »

chrossbows where so powerfull they broken any bolt fired with that was not made of iron or steel.
due to the heavy weight of the bolt and the high power the bold was accelerated with, crossbows where able to pirce any armor that was wearable - even those that where to heavy to weare when on foot and culd only been used effectively when mounted, like full plate mails.
the bolts where flying so fast, that it was impossible to block them calculatedly - like modern firearms : you cant dodge it. if the shooter hit you , you are done.  european cb´s had a real long reloading time, but the chinese had chrossbows with a loading mechanism and these culd fire verry fast.

so, if you want to make chrossbows realistic, remove all non iron/stell bolts from the game. reload time is ok for eastern types.  damage is ok, but it wuld be realistic to make them pierce armor even better. reduce the ability to block bolts.

this wuld be realistic. not necessary fun, at last not allways. in adventure mode, i wuld agree to the tread starter, these crossbow gobbos can end an adventure verry fast and can be frustrating.
but in fortressmode, i usually will have a dozen über chanpinons, invincible to almost all enemys. in this mode i wuld like to see an enemy weapon that actually culd hurt me, and bolts are ineffective here as my dwarfs just dodge or block them all.



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Neonivek

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2008, 06:04:10 pm »

Quote
the bolts where flying so fast, that it was impossible to block them calculatedly

You don't block the bolt you block the line of fire... Though Bolts were still not THAT fast

Quote
crossbows where able to pirce any armor that was wearable

Able to, but it was more then possible for it to Richochette off the armor, slide off, or be stopped right before it struck the person.

I am not saying Platemail should ignore it... I am saying it should have more effect then it does currently (in which it has none)

Quote
but in fortressmode, i usually will have a dozen über chanpinons, invincible to almost all enemys. in this mode i wuld like to see an enemy weapon that actually culd hurt me, and bolts are ineffective here as my dwarfs just dodge or block them all

Look, the problem is that Crossbows and Bows shouldn't be the weapon to rule them all... Ranged weapons didn't entirely dominate warfare until World War II I think... The fact that you get tons of dwarves that can ONLY be stopped by Crossbows/Bows (and technically the Bronze Collosi) is a flaw. If they realised you had a ton of Champions and I don't know... Created a Seige weapon that shot a 1000 arrows at once (Isn't Mythology great?), Threw a giant boulder,  thrown Serrated disks, or SOMETHING then perhaps. But for Arrows to be the only weapon Goblins can use to realistically siege a fort with?

Quote
the chinese had chrossbows with a loading mechanism and these culd fire verry fast

The Chu Nu? (Ugh I hope that is the name) Didn't it have relatively low firepower? (though I think they used Wooden bolts as well)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 06:12:07 pm by Neonivek »
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Overdose

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2008, 06:18:22 pm »

The Chu Nu? (Ugh I hope that is the name) Didn't it have relatively low firepower? (though I think they used Wooden bolts as well)
Chu ko nu.

Also, i personally halve the damage done by ranged weapons in the ammo_.txt file, just because i don't want everything dying to a single bolt/arrow. Works ok for the most part
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motorbitch

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2008, 06:19:16 pm »

hm jeah. like, im not the df pro, but it seems to me that  with high levels of shield/armor/weapon/wrestling skills plus some levels of agility hand to hand combat is more powerfull than ranged.
bolts wont hit you, and a shot with a hammer from a mighty legendary hammerdwarf will never glare.

as it is now, doubtless the chrossbow goblins are the only tread there is, especially once the rare goblin military leaders are dead.
but you sayed it already: a real epic solution for this wuld be:
Quote
...a ton of Champions and I don't know... Created a Seige weapon that shot a 1000 arrows at once, Threw a giant boulder,  thrown Serrated disks, or SOMETHING...

ps:
ever wresled a colossi ? :)
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Pilsu

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2008, 07:07:43 pm »

Just to note, early crossbows were devastating against armor but as time passed, improved forging techniques and design made them nearly impervious against ranged fire

Polearms and hammers were the counter for heavily armored troops
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Gnomechomsky

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2008, 12:25:34 pm »

Keep in mind that although a crossbow bolt can penetrate a decently thick armor plate, that can only happen when the angle is very close to perpendicular.  Hit at any significant angle, and the bolt glances harmlessly away.  Whereas the bolt will penetrate an unarmored opponent to devastating effect regardless of angle.

So in my opinion plate should have a significant percentage chance to completely negate arrows and bolts. 
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tigrex

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2008, 12:45:32 pm »

Armour did improve, but so did the crossbow.  The device itself was made more powerful over time, and arrow design was advanced to make armor-piercing bolts. (for each type of armour.)  Tests show that a (modern) crossbow has more penetrating power than a bullet.  In addition, the weight of the bolt drives it further into the target.  And any movement made by a stricken target would agitate the wound, opening and damaging it further.  By comparision, a broad sword could not cut through plate mail.

The history of warfare among sentient beings is that of ranged fire becoming more and more important, while technology makes ranged fire more and more effective.  Melee weapons became a dead end, both technologically and tactically. 

Dodging arrows, much less bolts, is an exercise in futility.  The projectiles travel at great speeds and the human eye is not well adapted to tracking such fast motion.  At most, you can feint so as to fool the archer into loosing his arrow in the wrong direction.

Crossbows took a long time to reload, even those that had advanced winches to reload faster.  To compensate, crossbow volleys were fired in a staggered mode of fire, so that the crossbowers were never left exposed to attack.

Wounds, even if not fatal, often killed their victems via infection, internal bleeding or other complications.  The bolt head could be forged so as to resist attempts to remove it without causing more damage.  Marksmen would often coat their bolts in food that had rotted so as to introduce their prey to the bacteria that dwelled within it.

Even if the bolt missed, the crossbower was not immediate danger if well positioned.  He could simply reload and fire again.  The crossbow had terrific accuracy, even with novice archers, and at close range (20 feet or so) head shots were feasible.

This does not make for balanced or epic gameplay.  The only weakness ranged weapons displayed was logistics - they required maintenance, lots of ammunition, and careful positioning and cover.  Fantasy games typically "penalise" ranged attacks' power, which is fair, but not realistic.

I suppose shields could have a higher effectiveness against ranged attacks, but I don't know how thick the metal would have to be to absorb the damage, nor how dense.  (Wood wouldn't be good enough.)  And the heavier the shield, the slower the soldier can move. 

As far as fortress mode goes, a crossbow should be more of a challenge to make than simply giving a bowyer 1 log.  It should require light mechanisms for reloading, and either wire or muscle fiber 'string'.  Standard crossbows should have a chance of breaking or misfiring in battle - only '+' or higher should be immune.  Crossbowers should only be able to carry about a dozen bolts - they will need a close stockpile to rearm.  And of course make them reload much slower.  But this would only make combat more fiddly and awkward.   :-\
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Rafal99

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2008, 01:46:23 pm »

I think this isn't a problem of overpowered champions - Champions clad in exceptional/masterworked steel are the Dwarven universe equivalents of Leonidas, Achilles or Paris.  They *should* be able to mow through a squad of fifteen goblins without raising a sweat.

The difference is that in DF you can turn 20 peasants/soap makers into 20 Leonidas'es, Achilles'es and Paris'es in about 4 years...
Imho higher levels of combat skills should be really slow to train, and should require an experience in a real fight.


Urist McSoldier is training in barracks. x100
Urist McSoldier has become a legendary champion! Hail Urist McSoldier!
(...)
An ambush! Curse them!
Urist McSoldier runs into a squad of goblins.
(...)
By Armok! There is blood everywhere!!!!!!
Urist McSoldier runs away crying...   
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The spinning Tantrum Spiral strikes The Fortress in the meeting hall!
It explodes in gore!
The Fortress has been struck down.

Dwarf Fanatic

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2008, 08:17:17 pm »

Here is a little from the Movies: God Curse and Bless Them!, Anyways, in LOTR return of the King... forces of Mordor invades Osgilath... DF style!

Faramir"I wonder what happened to those halflings."
Cappy Captain"They probally killed hundreds of orcs to die from a arrow."

Signal Guard,"I think I hear boats? Do Hermits live in Osgilath?"


Orc Cap,"Silence Him!"
Orc Mcbow with iron reenforced bow,"Die!"


Signal Guard,"Gath!"
(It pierced his Westernesse Plate, His Studded Jerkan, His under Tunic, and severed his lungs heart and spine.)
*Rolls done*

Faramir *whisper*,"They aren't attaking Cear Andros! They are attacking from the River!: Lets Ambush them!

:) ;)"
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h, Nessing is cool and all. And Civilization goes from stone to steam punk, but nothin'' beats a good dose of Fanaticialism to Dwarf Fortress and a load of Dwarfen Rum!

Tormy

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2008, 11:00:14 am »

Actually it wouldnt be hard to balance ranged combat.

1. Rate of Fire must be toned down a lot for bows and for xbows also.
2. Damage is absolutely ok for ranged weapons.
3. Shields need to have an important role vs. ranged weapons. Tower shields for example should deflect at least 65% of the incoming arrows & bolts.
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motorbitch

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2008, 12:11:47 pm »

not to forget:
ranged weapons are two handed and shuld not be wearable together with shields.
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Dwarf Fanatic

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2008, 12:45:51 pm »

But you should be able to wear it with a Buckler.

Also, High Boots, Plate, and high level armour should be bad against Ranging. Best Protection is Chain Armour Plus maybe metal Trousers. Perhaps Leather armour gives Ranging bonus.

I hate Full Steal Rangers (Tanks!)
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h, Nessing is cool and all. And Civilization goes from stone to steam punk, but nothin'' beats a good dose of Fanaticialism to Dwarf Fortress and a load of Dwarfen Rum!

Neonivek

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Re: ranged combat too powerful
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2008, 01:03:36 pm »

Actually it wouldnt be hard to balance ranged combat.

1. Rate of Fire must be toned down a lot for bows and for xbows also.
2. Damage is absolutely ok for ranged weapons.
3. Shields need to have an important role vs. ranged weapons. Tower shields for example should deflect at least 65% of the incoming arrows & bolts.

No we established that Damage is too powerful for Ranged weapons... Can we go beyond Damage arguements now?
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