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[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, goblins move and targets dont. Sooo...

Bear in mind that if you make fire rates slower and damage higher it simply makes megabeasts easier to kill.

[Jetman123]

Toady's going to change this in due time, once he gets around to doing the combat arc I beleive he'll flesh out crossbows and bows and balance them.

[Align]

Actually, the more I play, the more I think the problem is that all the weapons are really powerful relative to the enemies. A single hammer champion can wipe out a seige even more efficiently than a champion marksdwarf.

Basically there just need to be more late-game challenges. It needs to be a lot harder to damage or injure most megabeasts, esp. dragons.

It's definitely not just that. Just get an adventurer, grind him up so he's basically invulnerable to random encounters, then go to the elves or goblins and attack their bowmen. Marvel at how fast you die compared to melee attackers.

[anyar]

Actually, the more I play, the more I think the problem is that all the weapons are really powerful relative to the enemies. A single hammer champion can wipe out a seige even more efficiently than a champion marksdwarf.

Basically there just need to be more late-game challenges. It needs to be a lot harder to damage or injure most megabeasts, esp. dragons.

It's definitely not just that. Just get an adventurer, grind him up so he's basically invulnerable to random encounters, then go to the elves or goblins and attack their bowmen. Marvel at how fast you die compared to melee attackers.

It should be this way. Ranged weapons are FAAAR more dangerous than melee weapons. Champions shouldn't be impervious to them, because arrows and bolts move fast and can go through armor. Hell, Achilles was taken out by a few arrows, and he was supposed to be one of the greatest of his time.

[Align]

I suppose DF is more realistic than balanced already..

[Phant]

Actually, the more I play, the more I think the problem is that all the weapons are really powerful relative to the enemies. A single hammer champion can wipe out a seige even more efficiently than a champion marksdwarf.

Basically there just need to be more late-game challenges. It needs to be a lot harder to damage or injure most megabeasts, esp. dragons.

It's definitely not just that. Just get an adventurer, grind him up so he's basically invulnerable to random encounters, then go to the elves or goblins and attack their bowmen. Marvel at how fast you die compared to melee attackers.

It should be this way. Ranged weapons are FAAAR more dangerous than melee weapons. Champions shouldn't be impervious to them, because arrows and bolts move fast and can go through armor. Hell, Achilles was taken out by a few arrows, and he was supposed to be one of the greatest of his time.

Meh, Achilles was just lucky to have a demi-deity for a mother. As for skill gains from practice as opposed to the real thing, this would affect melee fighting more than ranged, but for both it would be a nice addition. As a fairly capable RL archer, I wouldent like to try my skills in the middle of a pitched battle. Peaceful archery gets you in the habit of tunnel vision, which I can imagine might be a fatal problem.

[cephalo]

Well, goblins move and targets dont. Sooo...

Bear in mind that if you make fire rates slower and damage higher it simply makes megabeasts easier to kill.

I wouldn't say the damage needs to be much higher, maybe it's plenty high enough. It's the 60 rounds a minute from a crossbow that really strains the imagination.

[Neonivek]

It should be this way. Ranged weapons are FAAAR more dangerous than melee weapons. Champions shouldn't be impervious to them, because arrows and bolts move fast and can go through armor. Hell, Achilles was taken out by a few arrows, and he was supposed to be one of the greatest of his time

Ranged has some advantages that melee weapons don't but they arn't more dangerous (Since during this time period... Calvalry was the Ace in the hole).

Achilles also was supposed to represent young foolishness... So him dying by being struck several times (Remember he didn't have ANY armor on...) wouldn't make a difference if it was arrows or Swords... Arrows were just used in the Poem because they are less personal then a sword.

The problem comes with the fact that for a very experienced Adventurer the only way they can die other then huge monsters... Are inept archer/crossbowmen who seem to be able to home in on your vital organs and strike your eye, kidney, and brain in one shot while you would be lucky to block even one arrow and only if you used a shield. (This is ignoring the mass of cheating a lot of people do with holding 200 shields). Then you see that your Super Human Stamina, dexterity, and speed are all but moot against these tiny arrows as well as any armor you have suddenly turns into expencive decoration

It is kinda suckish if you can walk through armies, slay dragons (Whos firebreath is easier to block then arrows), and survive having your legs chopped off by will alone... if you can be stopped by any Joe Shmo with a bow and arrow. It isn't all that Dramatic... I mean... Isn't there tons of stories about characters who have hundreds of arrows stuck in them? Or who with a single swing of their sword deflected whole battalion of Archers?

Though it isn't the only thing in the game that is too powerful it is one of the more glaring problems.

To put it simply... The Bow and Crossbow function in this game the way Id think a Military Class Rifle with Armor Peircing holopoint Rounds would.

[Jetman123]

... armor piercing hollowpoint rounds? No such thing, my friend, it's either armor piercing, FMJ or hollowpoint. (HPs are used on unarmored targets, FMJs or armor piercing rounds on armored targets)

[cephalo]

... armor piercing hollowpoint rounds? No such thing, my friend, it's either armor piercing, FMJ or hollowpoint. (HPs are used on unarmored targets, FMJs or armor piercing rounds on armored targets)

In DF, semi-auto crossbows first penetrate the armor, and then explode into your vitals. The analogy might be fanciful in RL terms, but in DF it's pretty accurate. 

[Idiom]

Ranged combat should be a bit overpowered. Why else would anyone ever bother with archers otherwise?

I want HE AP crossbow bolts.

[Jetman123]

... armor piercing hollowpoint rounds? No such thing, my friend, it's either armor piercing, FMJ or hollowpoint. (HPs are used on unarmored targets, FMJs or armor piercing rounds on armored targets)

In DF, semi-auto crossbows first penetrate the armor, and then explode into your vitals. The analogy might be fanciful in RL terms, but in DF it's pretty accurate. 

Oh yes. Of course, bolts are armor piercing hollow points - well, their equivalent.

[Jackrabbit]

well maybe we can all pretend that they are using that crossbow from Van Helsing. awesome.

seriously though archers firing that fast can also be a serious problem. my champion fired a dozen bolts at a goblin before the first even hit him (which killed him instantaneously by the way) they should fire at the rate of one bolt every two seconds at legendary and fire 1 bolt every 15 at the lowest. cause it can be awesome to see a repeat of the nist akath video

[sweitx]

It is kinda suckish if you can walk through armies, slay dragons (Whos firebreath is easier to block then arrows), and survive having your legs chopped off by will alone... if you can be stopped by any Joe Shmo with a bow and arrow.

You are aware that in medieval, Pope Innocent II tried to ban the use of crossbow against knights because a simple Joe Shmo with a crossbow can bring down a fully armored, well trained knight?

Although yes, the firing rate should be drasitcally reduced for crossbow.  Nor should crossbow deal multiple internal injury.  Although crossbow should severely damage any organ they hit (a one shot kill if it hit any vital organ such as brain or heart).

[Align]

I've heard that about crossbows before. Why is it that armies didn't switch to using them exclusively overnight?