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[cephalo]

I think the firing rate of bows/crossbows is way too high. I just had a squad of three novice marksdwarves get caught in the open by an ambush party of about ten melee goblins. Not a single goblin got into melee range, and each was hit by about 4 bolts.

Realistically, on flat ground, a crossbowman will get one good shot at a guy running at him with a melee weapon. At the highest possible skill he might get two, but certainly never more than that.

[Tormy]

Yes this is a well known problem for quite a long time now, hopefully Toady will change it / or give us the possibility to modify everything related to ranged weapons in the .raws

[TheDeadlyShoe]

In the meantime it is considered more dwarfly to hit things with hammers for this reason.

[sweitx]

For one, I agree that crossbow reload rate should be drastically reduced.  However, crossbow shots are very powerful, a single well placed shot should do a heck more damage then just arrow (250 may be good).  Arbalest (metal crossbow with metal pull-string) can punch through metal plate armor, no other weapon in the dwarf universe (those listed) can penetrate armor.  Except for bludgeoning weapon, which can probably concuss whoever is wearing said armor.  Of course, the quality of the crossbow should effect the damage it can do (higher quality can impart more energy for bolts).  So a low quality crossbow would have an equivalent power of a normal bow.  A high quality crossbow would be a devastating weapon (barring the reload time).

[cephalo]

For one, I agree that crossbow reload rate should be drastically reduced.  However, crossbow shots are very powerful, a single well placed shot should do a heck more damage then just arrow (250 may be good).  Arbalest (metal crossbow with metal pull-string) can punch through metal plate armor, no other weapon in the dwarf universe (those listed) can penetrate armor.  Except for bludgeoning weapon, which can probably concuss whoever is wearing said armor.  Of course, the quality of the crossbow should effect the damage it can do (higher quality can impart more energy for bolts).  So a low quality crossbow would have an equivalent power of a normal bow.  A high quality crossbow would be a devastating weapon (barring the reload time).

Yeah, I wouldn't want to see it nerfed to ineffectiveness. Getting hit by a crossbow bolt once should have a decent chance to cause a mortal injury. The place for a marksdwarf though should be in an inaccessable fortification, where there is no chance to be interrupted by an axe to the face. On flat ground you get one shot, and if you miss or if there's two goblins, you're dead. It shouldn't take 6 goblins to assault one marksdwarf. 

[Dolohov]

Maybe there needs to be a "reload" skill for marksdwarves?

Related to this, do fortifications actually do anything?  I had a number of marksdwarves three Z-levels above the ground behind fortifications, and they got picked off by goblin bowmen like there was nothing there.  I don't think the goblins missed once.  (My dwarves were doing pretty well themselves, but it seemed like the fortifications weren't helping any)

[Rhenaya]

well, give high qual crossbows a critical boost rate of 3, some damage but waay longer reload time, and all should be fine again?

[cephalo]

well, give high qual crossbows a critical boost rate of 3, some damage but waay longer reload time, and all should be fine again?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[Neonivek]

"Related to this, do fortifications actually do anything?"

Not enough... I have no idea how far back Fortifications have to be to reasonably stop arrows.

Then again, perhaps it did but the fact that I had a group of 10+ Goblins shooting arrows at me...

As for Crossbow Damage... It does need to go down somewhat so that bolts and Arrows don't seem to have the ability to home in on your vital organs... However it needs to be far less for Superhuman beings and (Semi)Megabeasts...

[cephalo]

I'm not sure what the exact advantage of fortifications is, but that the enemy can shoot through them is fine with me. That's really the only way to deal with fortified archery. There's alot of variables involved also like the skill of the opposing archers. If a goblin has enough skill to be exactly accurate at a certain range it makes sense the fortifications would do nothing.

[Narmio]

Shooting through a fortification you are not adjacent to requires a test on your marksman skill with a difficulty determined by the range.  What this means is that legendary goblin bowmen can kill your steel-clad marksdwarves in a tower six storys up and a screen's width away.  But that's part of the fun.

Oh, and my personal preference for this would be to have crossbows increase in range and accuracy rather than firing rate as your skill increases.  A skilled crossbowman is a deadly sniper not a machine gun emplacement.  The quality of the bow should have an impact on refire rate (quality of the reload lever/winch/whatever) but not at the current levels.

Of course, all this stuff requires that the effect of skill on weapon use by determined on a by-weapon basis.  Because longbows should certainly have a faster firing rate as your skill increases. 

[Calenth]

Actually, the more I play, the more I think the problem is that all the weapons are really powerful relative to the enemies. A single hammer champion can wipe out a seige even more efficiently than a champion marksdwarf.

Basically there just need to be more late-game challenges. It needs to be a lot harder to damage or injure most megabeasts, esp. dragons.

[cephalo]

Actually, the more I play, the more I think the problem is that all the weapons are really powerful relative to the enemies. A single hammer champion can wipe out a seige even more efficiently than a champion marksdwarf.

Basically there just need to be more late-game challenges. It needs to be a lot harder to damage or injure most megabeasts, esp. dragons.

I do know that every time I can manage training up a good melee'r, a group of your average goblin bowman will take him out if he charges in alone. That's alot of wasted micromanagement. 

[Narmio]

Actually, the more I play, the more I think the problem is that all the weapons are really powerful relative to the enemies. A single hammer champion can wipe out a seige even more efficiently than a champion marksdwarf.

Basically there just need to be more late-game challenges. It needs to be a lot harder to damage or injure most megabeasts, esp. dragons.

I think this isn't a problem of overpowered champions - Champions clad in exceptional/masterworked steel are the Dwarven universe equivalents of Leonidas, Achilles or Paris.  They *should* be able to mow through a squad of fifteen goblins without raising a sweat.  Only opposing special characters and beasts should even slow them down.

If there's a problem, it's that it's too easy to get a whole ton of champions just through sparring and firing at the range.  Even with dwarven sparring being as bloody as it is, I think there should be hugely diminishing returns for XP gathered "practicing" once you get to Elite.  Keep XP costs the same, but have the benefit of sparring and range shooting drop off, making it basically impossible to get significantly past the "Great" or "Master" sort of skill level without real fighting. 

There is only so much you can learn in the dojo. Now, my students, you must take your hammers down to the river and fight hippos to improve your skills.

[tigrex]

I don't know about that.  I watched the Olympic Archery competition, and it occurred to me that the finalists were legendary, even though none had slain any elephants.