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[Goran]

I've been thinking (and that is never a good sign) about life, universe, stuff.. and Dwarf Fortress...

I feel as though DF was more fun before... waaay back before it switched to 3d. As things stand now, aside from useless architectural wonders(you can build only so many pyramids), my forts feel more bland with every iteration.

I did even more thinking and I realized that fort maps are to blame. As things are now its too easy to powergame, simply because most stuff is instantly available. Most obvious powertool being open magma pipes.

And it gets worse, if you dont have stuff instantly available, it is most probably not there.

2D had much better progression with each feature representing a jump in development. First the underground river and flooding, then crossing the chasm, after the chasm magma and the begining of an advanced fort, and finally the horrors beyond the magma as the final test.

Thus, I feel there should be some steps of progression in current DF as well, something to present continuous challenges and achievements player must obtain to be able to develop further.

Perhaps a few tweaks in world generation, esp. soils and layers, combined with some form of digging restrictions might do the tricks.

Anyone else share the sentiment?

[Tormy]

Look, I know that its getting old but let me say it again: This game is alpha.
Now Toady has implemented the basics of the Army Arc and various other stuff. We are in the process to turn DF into something much better/diverse, and much more strategical. The first step towards that will be the Army Arc. Once its done, the gameplay will change a lot. [Not fortress mode itself, however you will be able to create armies, attack settlements/sites, also I expect to have much better and more challenging sieges also]
I think that Fortress mode itself will be just a small part of the final version.

[syllogism]

I agree the sense of progression, but it's only there for your first fort as even in the 2d version you could powergame straight to magma. You could have magma workshops running very early and in fact it was more trivial than it is now. For me, there was no motivation to start another 2d fortress after my first "perfect" one. In 3d there are many more possibilities and the starting locations can be much more interesting.

By the way, I started playing again this week after a ~20 month break and I'm once again hooked.

[thvaz]

The 2d version is still available. Stop the whining, you all.

Df is a work in progress. Maybe you just got tired from the game. Take a break of a year and two and then come back.

[Jiri Petru]

I agree with Goran that the game could use better progression of challenge. But I also agree with Tormy - DF is still alpha, and it will only get better and better. I have no doubt Toady is already devising ton of devious features how to make our lives harder. No need to worry...

On the other hand, we still can discuss it and share our thoughts, can't we?

In the old 2D version, the main source of gameplay gradation was environment and map features. I think these days are gone now, it would be hard to bring them back in the new 3D game with simulated biomes, etc. You could perhaps add some surprises to spice the things up (see "undergound diversity"), but It still wouldn't be gradation, as you have no control over when the player discovers the feature. He could find it straight away at the beginning, or he could find it accidentaly after 10 years. Balancing the difficulty out could be a pain.

The game already has a different - and better way of gameplay gradation, though. It is the created wealth, population and nobles. Especially the nobles seemed like a great idea when I first discovered them. Each noble enables a new feature, eg. Sherrif enables Justice, Tax Collector enables economy, etc. This is a great idea indeed and I hope Toady will expand on it. He probably intents to enable diplomacy wia Barons, Counts, etc. - I can imagine you won't be able to control armies on the world map until you get at least a baron, and won't be able to declare wars on other civilisations until you get the king himself (finally a reason to get the king!). Etc, etc. The game goals you have to accomplish to attract the king are another great idea.

The stuff is already in and it will only get better and more complex. But the game gradation won't be done by map features, it will be done by nobles. Mark my words. 

[LASD]

I think we don't need the discussion about difficulty and/or differences to 2D again.

Everything necessary and unnecessary was already said here (about the difficulty)

To get comparisons of 3D and 2D, I think search of 2D will yield a nice bunch of threads.

[Jiri Petru]

Actually I don't think this is supposed to be a discussion about difficulty.

The way I see it, it is a discussion about game progress, gradation of features, and perhaps diversity.

[LASD]

Actually I don't think this is supposed to be a discussion about difficulty.

The way I see it, it is a discussion about game progress, gradation of features, and perhaps diversity.

Yes, I noticed that myself and changed my message. I just think that nothing good will come out of this because similar discussion has been gone through many times before and it has ended in offensive posts and unhappy people (and thus a locked thread.)

No offense to Goran, I agree this is an important subject, but it's not that easy to make changes to it quickly/easily and people tend to get quite violent when they argue about it.

[dreiche2]

The way this thread progresses I have a slight deja vu here....

No need to get so defensive again, people. I think Goran has a valid point, but one that should be straight-forward to address.

I think you are right that there is less sense of a progression right now. However, you should not need to worry, because these things will very likely be addressed in the course of the army "arc", when Toady works on the underground diversity, etc (also see the suggestion forum, there are some underground discussions going on along exactly this line, i.e. how get more progression into the game, you should have a look at that).

The reason that DF currently feels like this is that by going from the 2D to the 3D it went from some sort of closed (mini-ish) game to a much broader game, for which so far only the foundations have been laid out, with much yet to come. A lot of recent work, such as on the history and world generation, was such ground work, building a framework from which much stuff will come which much more affects the actual game for the player, I'm sure.

Finally another small thing. DF might get boring at some point, but maybe that's just because you played it so much, and if it wasn't for the changes like 2d to 3d, this point maybe would have come much earlier...

[Zemat]

2D was more structured and challenging because the gameplay was pretty much the same always with a few differences due to location. But the game could become boring right away after the first two or three forts. And the world to which each fort belonged too was mostly an ornament.

3D versions is far from structured and most of the challenge is lost. But this is due mostly because of the new freedom and variability that the game introduces which helps to make each play session potentially unique. When Toady manages to reintroduce structure and challenges without sacrificing freedom and randomness then we will have a long lasting and fun experience.

[Awayfarer]

I disagree that everything is available immediately. For starters things like magma pools, cave rivers and such are not always visible on the surface. Secondly, even if such things are on the surface it's not like you can just go ahead and tap them. If I start on a map with magma the first thing I do is not going to be starting some massive magma-based wonder. The first thing I will do is mine out a living area, space for a few workshops and the basic necessities. Not to mention coming up with ways to deal with magma-based critters that don't take kindly to your types 'round here.

Same with other features. A carp-infested river is not immediately available as a source of water because there are thing in it that find dwarves tasty. A chasm, even if it is on the surface, is not immediately available unless your starting seven are equipped to handle the buggers that are roaming around on the surface.

Immediately visible is not equal to immediately available.

[John Johnston]

(I think it's reasonable to have the discussion as many times as people are interested in talking about it - the forum population changes all the time, new people may want to talk about it and older members may want to say something different.)

Anyway... I like the way DF is heading and don't think that it was more fun before, except for one thing:  critters don't respawn.  Dealing with attacks from the chasm and magma was fun, as was dealing with rampaging hordes of angry wildlife.  Without these ongoing challenges it's very easy to "subdue" a map into tedium.

[Tormy]

Eh, someone should bump this post in 2-3 years... "2D was fun" will be kinda very? obsolete by then. 

[dreiche2]

Anyway... I like the way DF is heading and don't think that it was more fun before, except for one thing:  critters don't respawn.  Dealing with attacks from the chasm and magma was fun, as was dealing with rampaging hordes of angry wildlife.  Without these ongoing challenges it's very easy to "subdue" a map into tedium.

That's actually a good point, I know the respawn issue came  up often already and that  Toady is going to address it at some point, but I can't remember him giving a reply on what exactly the issues are. Anyone knows? Why not simply have creatures respawn from time to time (at least those that enter the map from outside), even just as a temporary solution? Or are wildlife actually taken from the world gen population and don't breed properly?

edit: Just to clarify, "can't remember him giving a reply" wasn't a implied critique, but meant just literally. So if anyone has a link at hand, let me know.

[Mohreb el Yasim]

the problem is i think that they can't climb out ... so befor this climbing should be implemented so they can come from the deep  (and to be honest without climbing they aren't a real treat to dwarfes ...)