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Author Topic: So, about good games...  (Read 6927 times)

Torak

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2008, 03:50:30 am »

Hey, atleast you didn't die by being petrified by a Gorn beast, because you willingly decided to charge at it after you got ambushed on a road.


I really need to remember that I can examine monsters. It was my best Dwarven Beastmaster ever.
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Tormy

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2008, 08:46:13 am »

Battle for Wesnoth is a great game and its free! But only look it up if you like hex based strategy games, its not for everyone.


I dont know...Wesnoth is way too simple [KISS rule], and the random damage system wont make it better.
Just mess around with the combat system a bit: Creature A vs. Creature B. Even if the creatures have totally different stats, reload the game like 20 times, and attack Creature B with Creature A after the reload. You will get totally different random battle results. It is making no sense at all.
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Mohreb el Yasim

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2008, 08:50:27 am »

Battle for Wesnoth is a great game and its free! But only look it up if you like hex based strategy games, its not for everyone.


I dont know...Wesnoth is way too simple [KISS rule], and the random damage system wont make it better.
Just mess around with the combat system a bit: Creature A vs. Creature B. Even if the creatures have totally different stats, reload the game like 20 times, and attack Creature B with Creature A after the reload. You will get totally different random battle results. It is making no sense at all.


why if it is random it is normal that it change on reloads ...
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Tormy

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2008, 09:03:01 am »

Battle for Wesnoth is a great game and its free! But only look it up if you like hex based strategy games, its not for everyone.


I dont know...Wesnoth is way too simple [KISS rule], and the random damage system wont make it better.
Just mess around with the combat system a bit: Creature A vs. Creature B. Even if the creatures have totally different stats, reload the game like 20 times, and attack Creature B with Creature A after the reload. You will get totally different random battle results. It is making no sense at all.


why if it is random it is normal that it change on reloads ...

I think that a proper combat system should not be so random. Basically the whole game is all about luck. The complexity of the game is also very low [personally I dont like simple games] + strategically its not a real challenge at all...but again, this is my subjective opinion only.  :)
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anyar

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2008, 09:25:28 am »

Battle for Wesnoth is a great game and its free! But only look it up if you like hex based strategy games, its not for everyone.


I dont know...Wesnoth is way too simple [KISS rule], and the random damage system wont make it better.
Just mess around with the combat system a bit: Creature A vs. Creature B. Even if the creatures have totally different stats, reload the game like 20 times, and attack Creature B with Creature A after the reload. You will get totally different random battle results. It is making no sense at all.


why if it is random it is normal that it change on reloads ...

I think that a proper combat system should not be so random. Basically the whole game is all about luck. The complexity of the game is also very low [personally I dont like simple games] + strategically its not a real challenge at all...but again, this is my subjective opinion only.  :)
It's more realistic and requires more thought when combat involves luck... DF is the same way regarding combat.
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Tormy

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2008, 10:00:40 am »

Battle for Wesnoth is a great game and its free! But only look it up if you like hex based strategy games, its not for everyone.


I dont know...Wesnoth is way too simple [KISS rule], and the random damage system wont make it better.
Just mess around with the combat system a bit: Creature A vs. Creature B. Even if the creatures have totally different stats, reload the game like 20 times, and attack Creature B with Creature A after the reload. You will get totally different random battle results. It is making no sense at all.


why if it is random it is normal that it change on reloads ...

I think that a proper combat system should not be so random. Basically the whole game is all about luck. The complexity of the game is also very low [personally I dont like simple games] + strategically its not a real challenge at all...but again, this is my subjective opinion only.  :)
It's more realistic and requires more thought when combat involves luck... DF is the same way regarding combat.

Well DF is a completly different game, and yes luck is also an important factor in DF right now.
However, Wesnoth is supposed to be a hex based strategy game. Multiplayer battles are mostly all about luck and not about skill/strategy. That is my main problem with it.
The idea behind Wesnoth is good, but the quality of the "product" is low.
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Snall

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2008, 12:13:01 pm »

The only luck in DF (Once you quit and save 50x to get your Legendary whatever warrior) is when the bolt/arrow is going to hit you in the throat and kill you.  Why are there no GORGETS>!>!
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Draco18s

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2008, 01:35:08 pm »

However in ADOM the more of one creature you kill the tougher they get. And this buffing never stops.

There's exactly one place in ADOM where it's not advisable to stay too long, and that's the first level of the small cave. I once met a white worm in there.

The small cave is the only place that happens, and it's not based on monster type, it's based on your exp.  New monsters spawned have something like twice the exp you do.  You can handle this for a while, but around level 5 is starts getting difficult, and around 10 everything starts becoming deadly.  The record "scores" of this type of challenge game involve finding a room with one door and opening it, beating on something, and closing it when you become too injured to continue.  Typically the winners are casting types, firing off a LINE or CONE spell and nuking several creatures at once.
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numerobis

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2008, 04:15:04 pm »

I think that a proper combat system should not be so random. Basically the whole game is all about luck. The complexity of the game is also very low [personally I dont like simple games] + strategically its not a real challenge at all...but again, this is my subjective opinion only.  :)

I tend to see a lot of the game as being managing risk: you want to make sure you take enough risk to win, but not so much that you risk losing.  Plenty of strategy there.

Another game I played way too much of is freeciv (single-player).  And reasonably often I hit up crazymonkey and kongregate for some short plays.
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Tamren

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2008, 11:22:04 pm »

Again, Wesnoth is not for everyone. It might follow the KISS rules but sometimes that is what people want. When you play it you can almost hear the dice rolling in the background.

An example of a hex based that doesn't on luck and more tactics and stats is People's General from HOTU. Its the same genre as Wesnoth but has tanks and jets and stuff.

For good ways to spend time there are a lot of free options. Wesnoth was one, Soldat is worth a shot, Savage 2 has a free trial, and they do free events every now and then. Uh... go sift through Home of the Underdogs for some golden oldies. Master of magic, Master of orion, XCOM 1 and 2, and 3 but that one is hard to configure. Most of the HOTU stuff needs dosbox though.

Lots of stuff.
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Silfir

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2008, 05:04:03 am »

It's not only with the Small Cave in ADOM (a place where the first thing you find is a scroll of warning stating "Time is working against you" - that's pretty forgiving in my eyes!). Killing hundreds upon hundreds of some monster species can lead to an "Über"-version of said monster that does hundreds of damage per hit. It's often experienced with worms, jackals, and battle bunnies (gremlins after several thousand).

It's buggy - the effect, though intended is not supposed to be that brutal. As it is it discourages people from killing the same type of monster over and over and over again to get more stuff (the process called "grinding"). Whether this is a good thing or not... Your mileage may vary. I like that aspect. ADOM is a strategy game anyway, not a grinder.

As for Battle for Wesnoth... Are the Civilization games bad because there's luck involved? Is X-COM bad because there's luck involved? No. Risk management is a part of these games, as it is in Wesnoth.

I think it also fights the slippery slope effect prevalent in less luck-based strategy games, like Starcraft (Which also has a luck element in that there is a chance to miss units placed in certain locations, but it's a very minor one), where win or loss is often decided the moment one side makes a slight mistake, which creates a small advantage, leading to greater and greater advantages until the side loses. In Wesnoth, mistakes matter - there are ways to exploit them with minimum risk to create advantages that lead to an economy superiority, and sooner or later to victory. But if the disadvantage is small, some smartly thought out high-risk-high-gain bold moves and luck on your side later suddenly YOU'RE in front.
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grukobok

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2008, 06:30:51 am »

It's not only with the Small Cave in ADOM (a place where the first thing you find is a scroll of warning stating "Time is working against you" - that's pretty forgiving in my eyes!). Killing hundreds upon hundreds of some monster species can lead to an "Über"-version of said monster that does hundreds of damage per hit. It's often experienced with worms, jackals, and battle bunnies (gremlins after several thousand).

It's buggy - the effect, though intended is not supposed to be that brutal. As it is it discourages people from killing the same type of monster over and over and over again to get more stuff (the process called "grinding"). Whether this is a good thing or not... Your mileage may vary. I like that aspect. ADOM is a strategy game anyway, not a grinder.

As for Battle for Wesnoth... Are the Civilization games bad because there's luck involved? Is X-COM bad because there's luck involved? No. Risk management is a part of these games, as it is in Wesnoth.

I think it also fights the slippery slope effect prevalent in less luck-based strategy games, like Starcraft (Which also has a luck element in that there is a chance to miss units placed in certain locations, but it's a very minor one), where win or loss is often decided the moment one side makes a slight mistake, which creates a small advantage, leading to greater and greater advantages until the side loses. In Wesnoth, mistakes matter - there are ways to exploit them with minimum risk to create advantages that lead to an economy superiority, and sooner or later to victory. But if the disadvantage is small, some smartly thought out high-risk-high-gain bold moves and luck on your side later suddenly YOU'RE in front.

He wasn't saying luck is bad, he was saying too much is bad. If you read his post, he said that winning/losing was random, despite their stats. How can you make a strategy when everything is random? If all units have a 50% chance of killing the other, what is the purpose of having offensive/defensive units? Where's the fun in that. I love details - the kind that can kill you when you miss them. I think he must be wrong about his assessment, but you're also wrong.

Besides, that isn't the piont. There's not much else you can compare to DF (although I think spore is impressive). DF is epic. Not many games like this get very far, most die on the way there. I think it's something special that this project is still alive. Games like this take a long long time to make and most of the time they set themselves up for failure by setting the bar too high. I'm crossing my fingers, but I think it has a lot of promise. That's why I'm here. I'm not here to play just another by-the-book game. There's lots of those - they're safe yet getting old imho. I'm here because this game is doing something bold and fresh. It may "fail", but tis something to be admired.

Consider the legends system. Alone, it's just a collection of data. With a person looking over it, it becomes a story. It almost becomes a world. Look at Toady's goals and connect the dots. This is not the kind of game most of us grew up with. Most of the game worlds we grew up with were prebuilt by developers, not randomly constructed by the program. Most of the games we grew up with had predefined plots, settings, characters, etc. And DF is combining elements of strategy, roleplaying, and probably more. We won't just be able to build our cities and interact as a people, we'll be able to become an individual in a broad cityscape that can participate in this grand scheme. It reminds me of battlecruiser 3000 in some ways - EPIC. I don't think it'll ever have a large audience, but it's deffinately doing something most game developers avoid. That is precisely because it's too risky. Why program something unless you're fairly certain it'll do well enough to pay for itself? Doing new things is tough. Look at the mainstream. You'd never see a mainstream PC game like this. That doesn't mean it doesn't have an audience!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 06:57:47 am by grukobok »
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Silfir

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2008, 08:15:33 am »


As for Battle for Wesnoth... Are the Civilization games bad because there's luck involved? Is X-COM bad because there's luck involved? No. Risk management is a part of these games, as it is in Wesnoth.

I think it also fights the slippery slope effect prevalent in less luck-based strategy games, like Starcraft (Which also has a luck element in that there is a chance to miss units placed in certain locations, but it's a very minor one), where win or loss is often decided the moment one side makes a slight mistake, which creates a small advantage, leading to greater and greater advantages until the side loses. In Wesnoth, mistakes matter - there are ways to exploit them with minimum risk to create advantages that lead to an economy superiority, and sooner or later to victory. But if the disadvantage is small, some smartly thought out high-risk-high-gain bold moves and luck on your side later suddenly YOU'RE in front.

He wasn't saying luck is bad, he was saying too much is bad. If you read his post, he said that winning/losing was random, despite their stats. How can you make a strategy when everything is random? If all units have a 50% chance of killing the other, what is the purpose of having offensive/defensive units? Where's the fun in that. I love details - the kind that can kill you when you miss them. I think he must be wrong about his assessment, but you're also wrong.

How you can make a strategy when "everything is random"? Have you ever even played the game? If not, stating that I'm wrong is a pretty bold move.

The random elements are restricted to the distribution of traits (small boni, like extra HP or slightly faster movement) for certain units upon recruitment, part of the algorithm that determines if an attack hits (highly dependant on terrain type and how well the unit defends on the terrain type, it's rarely a 50% chance), and... um... well, if you choose a random faction or a random leader the result is random too, of course. That's all that's even remotely "random" about the main game.
Unit stats, like HP, XP needed for levelup, special abilities, resistances, defense on the terrain types, movement (how many, across what terrain), attacks (How many different kinds? Ranged or melee? Blade, pierce, impact, fire, cold, arcane? Is the attack poisonous or magical or has it any of the other special attack effects?), the units further up the upgrade tree, recruitment cost... Then of course the map layout doesn't suddenly change at random throughout a match, featuring the same terrain at all time... The result of the mixture of these predermined factors and the randomness - surprise surprise - is a game of strategy, with plenty room for skill, and mistakes or overlooked details.

Some people don't like having to dick around with five different resources, so they prefer Command and Conquer to Age of Empires. Similarly, if you don't like having to consider the possibility of failure for an attack, or the fact that sometimes you will just be too unlucky to win even if you do your best, you won't play Battle for Wesnoth. Claiming it is not a strategy game because it forces you to consider things in your strategy that you'd rather not want to consider, however, would be unfair.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 08:24:56 am by Silfir »
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Tormy

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2008, 08:46:37 am »

Silfir, you should try out civ4 bts [if its possible with the ffh2 mod], and compare it to wesnoth.
You will notice how random Wesnoth combat is compared to that.
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Omath Erius

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Re: So, about good games...
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2008, 09:14:10 am »

Wesnoth IS a strategy game. It may use luck elements, the strategy is bending those elements in your favor.

Example:
Elves only have a 20% chance of being hit by an attack while in a forest tile, compared to a 50% chancein plains.

Bandits conversly have a 40% chance of being hit when on plains, but a 70% chance of being hit while in forests.

So as the elves, a bad strategy would be to attack bandits head-on, a good strategy would be to place elves on the edge of forest areas and ambush bandits passing by. And a great strategy would be to lure bandits into the forest and attack them there.

The entire "luck" element is more often than not pretty skewed that way, as even though those undead have a CHANCE of killing your elite soldiers n their home turf, common sense disagrees.
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