Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Micro102]

i dont see a change. there is a difference in having creatues with huge heads and long tails that show the physics, but when you have a 4-6 legged creature with no distinctive bodyparts you wont see much. ive already seen that video, and seeing how it did not change my mind about spore shows it didnt not change a lot of other peoples minds or show that the physics were taken out. and there are still lies in those videos. things that were taken out and turned to garbage.

saying that they will come out in expansion packs is fine and all. but if they charge us for them then that just means they turned the game to mush just so they could sell the real game for more then others.

[Rhodan]

Wait, so you have seen these videos before, yet claimed in a previous post no important videos were released until a few weeks before release?  Huh, fancy that.

You're right about Spore having been turned to mush, but I doubt they did it on purpose and went out of their way to make up a bunch of "lies".  They just went with what was possible given their time frame, gameplay balance and marketing, making sure to praise their own game as much as possible because they need funding and sales, and slowly turned the game into carp because their vision wasn't feasible in the long run.

Plenty of the people I know, including me, became increasingly aware of Spore's decline over the years, after seeing all the videos.  But I guess they had no effect on people with magical memory-altering abilities, who didn't see a video until a week before release, then suddenly saw all of them after all.

[Micro102]

dont misquote me, i said no videos showing the change in physics...another "tweety" with the bad physics would be more then enough but they wouldnt do that because it shows they downgraded spore.

dont say you have become aware of the games decline and mock me for not noticing. i did not mock you for noticing it, and im not denying it either. but never have they revealed what the game would really be like, its impossible to tell what it would be like.

if so many people knew for certian about its decline there would of been something across the huge wave of spore info, but i did not see one thing in all my searching. so it obviously wasnt so obvious.

face it, 90% of all the people who bought the game were dissappionted in it. it shows a lack of advertisment, one i am sure was purposeful. the game could have been better

[Neonivek]

"i said no videos showing the change in physics..."

What about all those videos of creatures eating?

[Rhodan]

Micro102, I honestly can't find anything in your previous posts that I have misquoted.
And I shouldn't mock you for not noticing because you didn't mock me for noticing?  How very noble of you.  I guess this bit says it all, really.

I made a tweetybird-shaped thing in the Creature Creator, and I noticed something interesting.  Its head sways terribly as long as you don't put a mouth on it.  It doesn't lose balance, though.
I think this makes perfect sense.  The code is written to produce an animation that enables the creature to walk, no matter how silly it looks.  So a huge-headed creature has no issues with balance, or it'd have gone extinct anyways.  Once a beak was put on it's huge head, the swaying stopped.  Makes sense again, since it's important to keep a level head if you want to be properly aware of your surroundings.  I mean, there's a spine running through the whole thing, so there must be ribs and other supporting tissues in there as well.
Creatures still have physics, you can clearly see that when they jump or fly or shake their tail.  The physics just doesn't affect the walk anymore, because it was probably too difficult to implement this in a balanced way.  I hate the current walking, they can't even run properly.

[Micro102]

Micro102, I honestly can't find anything in your previous posts that I have misquoted.
And I shouldn't mock you for not noticing because you didn't mock me for noticing?  How very noble of you.  I guess this bit says it all, really.

I made a tweetybird-shaped thing in the Creature Creator, and I noticed something interesting.  Its head sways terribly as long as you don't put a mouth on it.  It doesn't lose balance, though.
I think this makes perfect sense.  The code is written to produce an animation that enables the creature to walk, no matter how silly it looks.  So a huge-headed creature has no issues with balance, or it'd have gone extinct anyways.  Once a beak was put on it's huge head, the swaying stopped.  Makes sense again, since it's important to keep a level head if you want to be properly aware of your surroundings.  I mean, there's a spine running through the whole thing, so there must be ribs and other supporting tissues in there as well.
Creatures still have physics, you can clearly see that when they jump or fly or shake their tail.  The physics just doesn't affect the walk anymore, because it was probably too difficult to implement this in a balanced way.  I hate the current walking, they can't even run properly.

sry it wasn't excatly a quote "claimed in a previous post no important videos were released until a few weeks before release"...the videos were indeed important, but i said videos that would let people know about the changes. the videos were too suddle to get anything out of them. just how EA wants it

there are NOT physics. its just an illusion. put the same peice on any creature and it will move the same way, its predesignated movements. thats why instead of shifting differently things just speed up. meaning even length doesnt effect your speed, 10 tiny scrunched together legs will go wickedly faster then a creature with 2 extremly lon legs which could obviously move faster. there is no physics in that.

a mouth will stop a part from moving because its coded to do that. the head's predetemrined movement is none. it always stays straight unless it wants to look to the left or right or something.

as for mocking, if we had this disscussion before the game was released i would of done something like made sure plenty of people knew about it, but if i didnt then the outcome says it all, 50 times more complaints then praises and your the first to say that they saw it coming. why didnt you do anything?

[Rhodan]

I'm not talking about the parts.  I'm talking about the spine which wobbles as the creature walks, takes sharp turns or jumps or falls over.  That's physics.  Even loose parts, such as feathers and leaves, move with physics by waving all over the place in reaction to how the creature moves.
The way the legs speed up or slow down when they're longer or shorter has nothing to do with a lack of physics, it has to do with a lack of proper walking animations.  They probably did this so all creatures would walk at the same speed.  It looks stupid, but it's not related to a total lack of physics.
The only physics that are missing would be those when interacting with the outside world, such as bumping your head against a tree.   Though I don't think such physics are visible in the first video, and they'd make the game less playable anyways.  Feet line up with the floor though, even on slopes.

And of course the head piece is coded to stop the bit it's on from moving, just like the legs are coded to touch the floor.  By your logic, a real-life giraffe, which surely has physics, would sway its head all over the place each time it takes a turn.  Keeping your head relatively still is important in most RL creatures, so they put that into Spore as well.  In a crappy way, but for still with a valid reason.

I didn't do anything about the decline of Spore because I had no right to.  EA makes a product, advertises it and sells it.  It's their right to make their product as crappy as they want to.  You can complain once you bought it and yell about false advertising if you must, though you won't really have a case since the E3 videos don't count as actual advertising since they're not showing the finished product.
It was probably hard to find negative criticism about Spore before release since excited people make a lot more noise, but you'll find a of posts now of people saying they saw it coming.

Spore still sucks, and could have been way better, but I don't feel like EA pulled one over on us.  They made a hype, they made a game, and the hype was way too big for the game.  It's really hard to control hypes, especially since Spore's hype traveled along with the increasing popularity of gaming blogs and communities.
I'm probably gonna buy the more interesting expansions, though.  The part packs are silly, but EA has always put lots of new content in it's actual expansions.

[Micro102]

like i said thats all illision. if you have a bunch of feathers and they are preset to move when the body does, then its gonna look like physics, but if you do the same thing to all your creatures you will see a pattern.

animation comes from physics. because movement creates force and momentum. which effect the rest of your body. i built a centapiede, and instead of bending to turn, its like it floats in air, does a 90 degree turn, then starts moving foward.....its feet dont touch the ground, creatures just hover there and animate walking. no physics

a giraffe doesnt have a head 13 times the size of its body, if you make a bad creature it should not be able to survive as well. thats what the editor is for.

saying you had no right to? that doesnt make any sense that would mean it was illegal and last time i checked we has freedom of speech.

never saw a post in all my searching, no point if they arent where anyone is goign to see them

its EA, they have a history of pulling stuff over on people. and they did wit spore, why do you think that its one of the most complained about games? (yes im talking about gameplay wise not the SecuRom)

[Sean Mirrsen]

I FOUND IT! No, seriously. I found the game (or rather, remembered it) that the Spore's creature creator reminded me so of. Seriously. RoboRumble. Exx-actly the same, minus the funky animations (that you could program yourself btw) and the smooth bodypart transitions, plus similar lack of proper physics. But! Even then, RoboRumble had one thing right despite all its other flaws design-wise. If you built a robot wrong, it wouldn't function. Build it too long in one direction without a counterweight, and it'll keel over on the spot. If anyone, Anyone At All, decides to make a oboRumble 2, he will only have to fix two things - he'll need to add more proper physics (like, momentum), and he'll need to add the ability to design the legs of the robot, not just choose and paint them. THEN it will be GLORIOUS.

[Rhodan]

You do realize any physics in a game is an illusion, right?  If you want to make a bunch of stuff move in a manner that looks like physics, the cheapest, fastest and easiest way would be to add the basic rules of physics.  Any other option would require someone to make a cartload of animations and save those somewhere, and load then when needed.  And you'd need a lot of animations to cover any possible outcome.
The only reasonable way to make a leaf move at the same speed as the bodypart is on, is by physics.  I mean, moving because the object you're attached to moves, is a rule of physics.  Swaying more or less because you went fast or slow, is physics.  You can't preset that.  Sure, all leaves follow the same pattern.  That's physics for ya, they're all the same rules everywhere in our part of the universe.
The walking animations for the caterpillar use physics too.  The game increases the rigidness of the spine between legs so it can make it's really crappy walking animation that is designed to "work" for any possible creature.  If you take off all feet except two, you'll notice the caterpillar will bend slightly as it turns a corner or looks around, although it'll still try to keep a rigid tail near it's base.

I just made a monkey-like thing by making the spine very long and thin, then adding a bunch of arms and legs shaped like a monkey in front.  The result was a monkey with a very long tail, much like the Marsupilami*.  When it runs in circles, the tail curves along, although it tries to keep straight near the legs.  When it jumps, the whole tail does the mexican wave without the audience.  That's physics.

Spore creatures are ragdolls, really.  Except unlike in humanoid ragdolls, it has to figure out for itself which joints should be stiff and which not.  The basic rules appear to be anywhere between limbs, and the bit with the head on.  The other rule is that legs are always rigid and the feet are glued to the floor, which is indeed not very physics-like, but the only way to make "impossible" creations impossible.  They probably did that to make the game accessible to everyone and not limit creativity. (big fail, really, creativity is all about limits and working with those)

A creature with a head 13 times the size of its body should indeed fail, but Spore just assumes it has really strong bones, muscles and balance to keep it upright.

Let's make that "I didn't do anything about the decline of Spore because I felt had no right to.", you're right about it not being illegal, but I don't see what freedom of speech has to do with it.  Being allowed to voice an opinion doesn't make said opinion any less unfounded or biased.  I'm not gonna complain about a luxury product I haven't bought yet, don't have to buy, and doesn't affect my life in any meaningful way if it turns out to be total crap.  It's not even personal.
It's not like they went up to me and said "Hey Rho, we're gonna make this awesome game for you, promise!" and then failed at it.  They just said "Hey people that pay our wages, this is a prototype of a game we're gonna make, please pay us!", and "Hey people that buy our stuff, we're gonna make a game and so far we think it'll look like this.  Buy it if you're interested, eh?"

[Sean Mirrsen]

You do realize any physics in a game is an illusion, right?  If you want to make a bunch of stuff move in a manner that looks like physics, the cheapest, fastest and easiest way would be to add the basic rules of physics.  Any other option would require someone to make a cartload of animations and save those somewhere, and load then when needed.  And you'd need a lot of animations to cover any possible outcome.
The only reasonable way to make a leaf move at the same speed as the bodypart is on, is by physics.  I mean, moving because the object you're attached to moves, is a rule of physics.  Swaying more or less because you went fast or slow, is physics.  You can't preset that.  Sure, all leaves follow the same pattern.  That's physics for ya, they're all the same rules everywhere in our part of the universe.
The walking animations for the caterpillar use physics too.  The game increases the rigidness of the spine between legs so it can make it's really crappy walking animation that is designed to "work" for any possible creature.  If you take off all feet except two, you'll notice the caterpillar will bend slightly as it turns a corner or looks around, although it'll still try to keep a rigid tail near it's base.

I just made a monkey-like thing by making the spine very long and thin, then adding a bunch of arms and legs shaped like a monkey in front.  The result was a monkey with a very long tail, much like the Marsupilami*.  When it runs in circles, the tail curves along, although it tries to keep straight near the legs.  When it jumps, the whole tail does the mexican wave without the audience.  That's physics.

Spore creatures are ragdolls, really.  Except unlike in humanoid ragdolls, it has to figure out for itself which joints should be stiff and which not.  The basic rules appear to be anywhere between limbs, and the bit with the head on.  The other rule is that legs are always rigid and the feet are glued to the floor, which is indeed not very physics-like, but the only way to make "impossible" creations impossible.  They probably did that to make the game accessible to everyone and not limit creativity. (big fail, really, creativity is all about limits and working with those)

A creature with a head 13 times the size of its body should indeed fail, but Spore just assumes it has really strong bones, muscles and balance to keep it upright.

Spore has no creature physics. Period. It doesn't even have ragdolls, as proven by the corpses. It has a preset array of animations that are scaled appropriately for every part you make. Legs all have the same animation, differing only in speed and magnitude. That's why you can't make a creature with eight legs that moves even slightly realistically, they don't even go so far as to calculate the body structure of the creature. That's all they have - dynamic animations. Not physics, not ragdolls - just dynamic animations, it's just as real as car damage in Flatout - it looks realistic at times, until you wonder how the heck did you dent your door after crashing into a signpost. Carmageddon 2 was the king of realistic car damage btw.

If you want to see REAL ragdoll physics, go play Sumotori Dreams. It has proper Powered Ragdolls. That Walk. THAT is what Spore needed - and it was done by one person in a game that weighs several kilobytes.

[Micro102]

ok forget it im not calling it physics anymore.

when that three legged alligator's tail swayed, and how it walked oddly, and how tweeties head shifted all over the place, what are those called? someone give me a name

[Sean Mirrsen]

There's no specific name for it, but at least it seemed to include some sort of precalculation going on. Precalulated physics (especially for a preset amount of actions) are another variant for doing animations. Character modelling programs use it all the time when dealing with cloth and hair - if you have the action defined, you can run the dynamic simulation for them, and it won't interfere with rendering later.

I remember seeing the 2005 videos, but I don't remember them in detail. However, the shifting of the weight in a big-headed creature is at least a subtle hint that there is some preprocessing going on. Alternatively, it could have been a real powered ragdoll with a precalculated walk animation, in which case it would have been realtime physics.

[Rhodan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6M174VPqt8
See the bit where it goes wobble wobble when munched on?  It even gets pulled in the direction of the creature eating it, as evidenced by the second creature eating from another angle.  A very basic pull, but it shows that the corpse still has elasticity applied to it to make it react to applied force.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL5V-H8LS24&feature=related
This one is even better.  The first epic's tail moves and spazzes out a bit after it died.  If the corpses are just basic models with premade animations, then why did the tail do that?  Anyone who has ever seen ragdoll physics recognizes glitches like these.
The only parts that aren't ragdollified is the arms and legs, since they probably found it easier to just assume they are always rigid and the muscles work against momentum and the owner tries to keep them steady.
If you make a 2-legged alligator like in the 2005 video, the tail still sways unless you put a limb or mouth on it.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Err, that eating video does not show ragdoll or applied force. If it is indeed there, it would mean the technology is used for nothing, because it looks just like a dynamic animation based on IK. I'm not even sure whether the difference in the two creatures eating is due to the difference in direction or camera angle. Dynamic animations exist even in Total Annihilation circa 1997, where units would rock in different ways based on the direction of the incoming hit.

As for the idea that ragdoll might exist in Spore, I don't want to draw conclusions based on my memory (it tends to make stuff up of its own accord), but if it does it is practically never used. Because if it were used, dragging corpses would still be in - it was possible since the first Hitman game. And glitches are just as frequent with IK calculations where a quaternion gets looped the wrong way.