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[Revvy1911]

This thread is being created due to the almost inevitable thread wars that come to pass concerning the new Bethesda game Fallout 3.  Ok, so here's the rules.. And if I can't do this, moderators feel free to lock and pw3n this thread.

Rules:
1. Everything posted in this thread must be FALLOUT related. (No, hey, speaking of Wars, how about Final Fantasy 33392?!)
2. Please keep it as civil as possible, I know it will be hard, but remember the topic is FALLOUT not attacking other peoples opinions.
3. If you post, for or against Fallout 3 please state a brief reason for why you are pro/con and any supportive material you have to backup your claim.
4. This Is Fallout Wars Thread, we're not talking about the War Against IRAQ, Barney on channel 3,  or Anything Political. Fallout only, See Rule 1.
5. Use common sense, you guys know when your pushing an issue too far.. if it starts to get out of hand try to swing back and rejoin civil society.

And.. GO.. (Psh, this is gonna go well) 

[Revvy1911]

I'll go first.

I am defending Fallout 3.

Ever since I discovered Fallout 1 when it first came out I was hooked, the story was unique the game play was different from any other RPGs at the time and it was wonderfully gory and mature filled with Adult Content to please any true CRPG fan. The view also worked well, it reminded me of tabletop and thats part of the reason why it drew me isometric view basically does Fallout justice as it did X-COM. My only nit pick at the game was it's TIME, I hate games where I am rushed to do objectives I like to move at my own speed. The time constraint diffenately made it more challenging but I felt I never had enough time to explore the world unless I restarted the game multiple times after failing. Then Fallout 2 came along, fixed my time problem (At least it wasn't what seemed like a few hours, it still had a "Time" but in game it took 13 years for the game to stop) it also added in my opinion more depth although it elemintaed the feel of being a lone survivor right after a nuclear war do to the more towns, and more active encounters in the wastelands. But this wasn't an issue, they stuck to the isometric view and expanded on it by fixing bugs, moving the story forward and generally made it a well deserved sequal. Now remember these games were released in the 1990's graphics weren't really a plus, it was the gameplay that matterd.

Welcome to 2008, I know we're all sad that Fallout 3 won't be isometric and we can't see our old 1D - 2D sprites like we're use too. And we're probably worried that the game is being created by the same developers that created Oblivion. But look at how Bethesda itself evolved over time.. They went from 2D sprites with a huge open world in Dagger fall, improved it with graphics and a nice stream of options in Morrowind. Improved even more with even better graphics, but the game play suffered due to the hype they claimed they had on the AI. And the auto-level was bullshit, now I think they finally learned their lesson and Fallout 3 will benefit from it. First Person Shooter's is the highest sold genre in the world, I don't care if you claim Strategy is the best the reason any developer would move the 3rd Fallout into FPS/RPG is because it will attract more mainstream crowds rather then religious fans that want to keep everything 2D. Look at Crysis for example, if that game was RPG based, toned down the constant action and had a different story based around creating a city with your bare hands and defending it with weapons would be just as attractive as Fallout 3 in 3D. Fallout 3 can't get any worse, and we can't expect it to be the best or it won't be. As long as it has Mature content, blood, sex, drugs, and multiple choice dialog I don't care if the game is text based only. It's got me sold.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I think Fallout 3 will be awesome and so cool. I will buy several!

[Lord Dullard]

I'm ambivalent. I have high hopes, but I'm also not going to hold my breath.

As much as I loved Fallout 1 & 2, and Morrowind, I was not particularly fond of Oblivion. Oblivion was a decent game after being modded with Oscuro's and having its difficulty exponentially cranked up, but the simple fact of the matter is - compared to its predecessors, Oblivion was a kiddie sandbox. Everything was too easy, gameplay was horrendously unbalanced, and as beautiful as the scenery was, it just didn't jive with me as well as Morrowind did.

That said, if Bethesda manages to make Fallout 3 enough of a challenge to keep the game interesting, I think it could have an incredible amount of promise. I'm also looking forward to seeing the world of Fallout in 3D.

[Revvy1911]

Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul is what made Oblivion fun. Let's keep our fingers crossed in hopes that Bethesda won't make the same mistake with Fallout 3. If so.. we can always wait for Oscuros Fallout Overhaul. 

[Sergius]

I'm gonna defend Fallout 3:

Well, it's 3D, first person, whatever. Who cares. Is it good? Time will tell. Having Oblivion-style graphics isn't a con in my book. Hopefully the map will be big and detailed despite being a single city. RPGs like Oblivion and Fallout 1-2 usually have tiny "cities" which would barely qualify as a village elsewhere.

Now I'm gonna attack it:

If the gameplay and plot is as shallow as Oblivion then we're all doomed. No to scaled combat! No to... um...

(rolls 16 to Attack)
(rolls 19 to Defend)

Ok, Fallout 3 has been successfully Defended!.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

I'll go first.

I am defending Fallout 3.

Ever since I discovered Fallout 1 when it first came out I was hooked, the story was unique the game play was different from any other RPGs at the time and it was wonderfully gory and mature filled with Adult Content to please any true CRPG fan. The view also worked well, it reminded me of tabletop and thats part of the reason why it drew me isometric view basically does Fallout justice as it did X-COM. My only nit pick at the game was it's TIME, I hate games where I am rushed to do objectives I like to move at my own speed. The time constraint diffenately made it more challenging but I felt I never had enough time to explore the world unless I restarted the game multiple times after failing. Then Fallout 2 came along, fixed my time problem (At least it wasn't what seemed like a few hours, it still had a "Time" but in game it took 13 years for the game to stop) it also added in my opinion more depth although it elemintaed the feel of being a lone survivor right after a nuclear war do to the more towns, and more active encounters in the wastelands. But this wasn't an issue, they stuck to the isometric view and expanded on it by fixing bugs, moving the story forward and generally made it a well deserved sequal. Now remember these games were released in the 1990's graphics weren't really a plus, it was the gameplay that matterd.

Welcome to 2008, I know we're all sad that Fallout 3 won't be isometric and we can't see our old 1D - 2D sprites like we're use too. And we're probably worried that the game is being created by the same developers that created Oblivion. But look at how Bethesda itself evolved over time.. They went from 2D sprites with a huge open world in Dagger fall, improved it with graphics and a nice stream of options in Morrowind. Improved even more with even better graphics, but the game play suffered due to the hype they claimed they had on the AI. And the auto-level was bullshit, now I think they finally learned their lesson and Fallout 3 will benefit from it. First Person Shooter's is the highest sold genre in the world, I don't care if you claim Strategy is the best the reason any developer would move the 3rd Fallout into FPS/RPG is because it will attract more mainstream crowds rather then religious fans that want to keep everything 2D. Look at Crysis for example, if that game was RPG based, toned down the constant action and had a different story based around creating a city with your bare hands and defending it with weapons would be just as attractive as Fallout 3 in 3D. Fallout 3 can't get any worse, and we can't expect it to be the best or it won't be. As long as it has Mature content, blood, sex, drugs, and multiple choice dialog I don't care if the game is text based only. It's got me sold.

Well, I'm attacking Fallout 3 as you can probably guess if you've seen my tangents in other threads(sorry).

Your argument seems to be based on a lack of information.  You seem to think that the only thing that's changed is the perspective, but that's far from the case.  Finally you seem to be implying that gameplay is less important than graphics.

Not only have they changed the perspective to first person, but they've made it into a first person shooter as well(and a crappy one at that.  They've butchered the game world and the art style with stupid things like hand held miniature Nuclear Catapults and burnt out cars with still volatile nuclear reactors, because apparently nothing says a Fallout game like tons of tiny mushroom clouds all over the place. 

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/37141.html

The Super Mutants are now completely mindless, and have been made to look like a mix between peter Jackson's Uruk Hai and the Nemesis from Resident Evil 3, nevermind that there shouldn't even be any Super Mutants on DC... or Brotherhood of Steel, who are now a bunch of modern soldier stereotypes.  While we're at it, their powered armor now just looks like a bunch of plates strapped to an undersuit.  Then there's the Enclave.  You know, the guys that got wiped out in Fallout 2?  Well they've magically come back and are on the East Coast now.  They also apparently bring in vertabirds to attack random people on the street.

VATS, what VATS does for anyone who is still confused is that when you press the button, it pauses the game.  You then use action points to target either the head, body, l/r arm, l/r leg, or weapon of an enemy.  It then unpauses the game in slow motion and plays a canned animation of you firing your weapon at the enemy.  That's what it does every time you use VATS.  This can only be done with guns.  No more melee called shots.  No groin shots anywhere.

The character system has been dumbed down.  They've merged Traits and Perks, and you now get a perk every level just because playtesters became confused when they didn't get a perk at level up.  That was the actual explanation they gave.  Then there are stupid perks like "Ladykiller"  which gives you 'extra dialogue options' with females characters(no examples given)... and causes you to do extra damage against female characters...

Despite claims of better dialogue the only examples we've had have been just generic polite, neutral, rude options. 

1)"Sorry kid, your dad is dead." 
2)"Your dad is dead." 
3)"Your dad is ant food."

The choices we've been shown so far seem to be clearly split between nice/good and evil/asshole.

Detonate an nuclear bomb and destroy the city Y/N?

So far most of the changes I've seen have been done solely to appeal more to Oblivion fans.  First person shoot gameplay, face-gen, customizable houses with robo butlers, hordes of mindless enemies, mini-games galore, a radar on the HUD that's like the quest compass except now it actually displays enemies too, and of course everything I've mentioned previously.

To quote one ecstatic preview,  "Fallout 3 is Oblivion 2."

EDIT: Oh yeah, and there's no sex, and children are invincible.

[Zironic]

I'm gonna defend Fallout 3:

Well, it's 3D, first person, whatever. Who cares. Is it good? Time will tell. Having Oblivion-style graphics isn't a con in my book. Hopefully the map will be big and detailed despite being a single city. RPGs like Oblivion and Fallout 1-2 usually have tiny "cities" which would barely qualify as a village elsewhere.

Now I'm gonna attack it:

If the gameplay and plot is as shallow as Oblivion then we're all doomed. No to scaled combat! No to... um...

(rolls 16 to Attack)
(rolls 19 to Defend)

Ok, Fallout 3 has been successfully Defended!.

There is multi-cities, just one close to start. They started off designing a small area total, then after a while began expanding it do to staff ideas - mostly artists ( many who are fallout fans)

[Zironic]

I'll go first.

I am defending Fallout 3.

Ever since I discovered Fallout 1 when it first came out I was hooked, the story was unique the game play was different from any other RPGs at the time and it was wonderfully gory and mature filled with Adult Content to please any true CRPG fan. The view also worked well, it reminded me of tabletop and thats part of the reason why it drew me isometric view basically does Fallout justice as it did X-COM. My only nit pick at the game was it's TIME, I hate games where I am rushed to do objectives I like to move at my own speed. The time constraint diffenately made it more challenging but I felt I never had enough time to explore the world unless I restarted the game multiple times after failing. Then Fallout 2 came along, fixed my time problem (At least it wasn't what seemed like a few hours, it still had a "Time" but in game it took 13 years for the game to stop) it also added in my opinion more depth although it elemintaed the feel of being a lone survivor right after a nuclear war do to the more towns, and more active encounters in the wastelands. But this wasn't an issue, they stuck to the isometric view and expanded on it by fixing bugs, moving the story forward and generally made it a well deserved sequal. Now remember these games were released in the 1990's graphics weren't really a plus, it was the gameplay that matterd.

Welcome to 2008, I know we're all sad that Fallout 3 won't be isometric and we can't see our old 1D - 2D sprites like we're use too. And we're probably worried that the game is being created by the same developers that created Oblivion. But look at how Bethesda itself evolved over time.. They went from 2D sprites with a huge open world in Dagger fall, improved it with graphics and a nice stream of options in Morrowind. Improved even more with even better graphics, but the game play suffered due to the hype they claimed they had on the AI. And the auto-level was bullshit, now I think they finally learned their lesson and Fallout 3 will benefit from it. First Person Shooter's is the highest sold genre in the world, I don't care if you claim Strategy is the best the reason any developer would move the 3rd Fallout into FPS/RPG is because it will attract more mainstream crowds rather then religious fans that want to keep everything 2D. Look at Crysis for example, if that game was RPG based, toned down the constant action and had a different story based around creating a city with your bare hands and defending it with weapons would be just as attractive as Fallout 3 in 3D. Fallout 3 can't get any worse, and we can't expect it to be the best or it won't be. As long as it has Mature content, blood, sex, drugs, and multiple choice dialog I don't care if the game is text based only. It's got me sold.

Well, I'm attacking Fallout 3 as you can probably guess if you've seen my tangents in other threads(sorry).

Your argument seems to be based on a lack of information.  You seem to think that the only thing that's changed is the perspective, but that's far from the case.  Finally you seem to be implying that gameplay is less important than graphics.

Not only have they changed the perspective to first person, but they've made it into a first person shooter as well(and a crappy one at that.  They've butchered the game world and the art style with stupid things like hand held miniature Nuclear Catapults and burnt out cars with still volatile nuclear reactors, because apparently nothing says a Fallout game like tons of tiny mushroom clouds all over the place. 

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/37141.html

The Super Mutants are now completely mindless, and have been made to look like a mix between peter Jackson's Uruk Hai and the Nemesis from Resident Evil 3, nevermind that there shouldn't even be any Super Mutants on DC... or Brotherhood of Steel, who are now a bunch of modern soldier stereotypes.  While we're at it, their powered armor now just looks like a bunch of plates strapped to an undersuit.  Then there's the Enclave.  You know, the guys that got wiped out in Fallout 2?  Well they've magically come back and are on the East Coast now.  They also apparently bring in vertabirds to attack random people on the street.

VATS, what VATS does for anyone who is still confused is that when you press the button, it pauses the game.  You then use action points to target either the head, body, l/r arm, l/r leg, or weapon of an enemy.  It then unpauses the game in slow motion and plays a canned animation of you firing your weapon at the enemy.  That's what it does every time you use VATS.  This can only be done with guns.  No more melee called shots.  No groin shots anywhere.

The character system has been dumbed down.  They've merged Traits and Perks, and you now get a perk every level just because playtesters became confused when they didn't get a perk at level up.  That was the actual explanation they gave.  Then there are stupid perks like "Ladykiller"  which gives you 'extra dialogue options' with females characters(no examples given)... and causes you to do extra damage against female characters...

Despite claims of better dialogue the only examples we've had have been just generic polite, neutral, rude options. 

1)"Sorry kid, your dad is dead." 
2)"Your dad is dead." 
3)"Your dad is ant food."

The choices we've been shown so far seem to be clearly split between nice/good and evil/asshole.

Detonate an nuclear bomb and destroy the city Y/N?

So far most of the changes I've seen have been done solely to appeal more to Oblivion fans.  First person shoot gameplay, face-gen, customizable houses with robo butlers, hordes of mindless enemies, mini-games galore, a radar on the HUD that's like the quest compass except now it actually displays enemies too, and of course everything I've mentioned previously.

To quote one ecstatic preview,  "Fallout 3 is Oblivion 2."

EDIT: Oh yeah, and there's no sex, and children are invincible.

VATS, actually can miss, you ninny, read actually previews where the people tested more recent versions, AND can be used to disarm heavily armed people = tactics

AND re-re you don't get the strong powerful weapons/armor till the end...

[Dasleah]

hai u guyz

lets complain abut a game that haznt bean relesaed yet, ok lolz?

i mean, nun of us has even plaied a demo yet but we know exactcly what it iz going to be like!

kkthzbai

[Davion]

hai u guyz

lets complain abut a game that haznt bean relesaed yet, ok lolz?

i mean, nun of us has even plaied a demo yet but we know exactcly what it iz going to be like!

kkthzbai

Blizzard fans have been complaining about games like Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 since before they were even in development, WHY CAN'T FALLOUT 3 BE TORN APART IN THE SAME FASHION

I am in the camp of: Fallout 3 was destined to fail from the beginning because many fans of the series regularly roll around in the first two games and rub them all over their bodies; they really don't want a revival, they want a turn-based game in graphics only the 90's can bring them and if  you can't give them that then god help you.

I probably won't buy Fallout 3 because Oblivion was pushing my system. Plus Oblivion was a pretty mediocre game, along with Morrowind. So their track record isn't that great.

Fallout and Fallout 2 didn't hold my attention for too long either, though I did like the setting and the art direction and the campyness of it all. So I am pretty indifferent on a lot of this.

[Lord Dullard]

Calling someone a 'ninny' seems pretty uncalled for.

hai u guyz

lets complain abut a game that haznt bean relesaed yet, ok lolz?

i mean, nun of us has even plaied a demo yet but we know exactcly what it iz going to be like!

kkthzbai

Wait.. I've got an even BETTER idea. Let's go find a thread that says it's supposed to be about arguing over whether a game that hasn't been released yet is going to be good or not.. and complain about the people posting arguments!

BRILLIANT! 

[Torak]

VATS, actually can miss, you ninny, read actually previews where the people tested more recent versions, AND can be used to disarm heavily armed people = tactics

AND re-re you don't get the strong powerful weapons/armor till the end...

You're responding to things that he never even said, take your own advice and atleast try to flame about something a person says instead of making yourself look like a moron.

[Okenido]

Best case scenario:
1. Fallout 3 keeps the feeling, and black humor of the first 2 games.
2. You can join at least the ****ing Brotherhood of Steel.
3. You can beat the game by not killing anyone directly.
4. The options of are mostly in the gray area of morals.
5. You can kill children.
6. VATS works for both melee, and ranged weapons.
7. VATS allows the fighting to be extremely strategic.
8. AI is actually good.
9. The mini nuke and it's ammo is rare.
10. Traits and perks work as they used too, and they make more sense. (Oh come on... This makes me worry if that Bethesda makes a game based after D&D you get a feat every level.)
11. Crotch shots!

Worse case scenario:
1. Options are the Good, Neutral, and Evil system.
2. Fallout 3 is Oblivion with post apocalyptic skins attached to it.
3. Uses same AI as Oblivion.
4. Fallout 3 uses fucking scaling monsters.
5. VATS is pointless or broken.
6. Characters become super powered.
7. Children are removed, or invulnerable, or warp away when attacked.
8. Fallout 3 becomes an mmo.
9. Main quest involves saving the world.
10. All controversy but violence is removed.

I think this is the basics of the basics.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

hai u guyz

lets complain abut a game that haznt bean relesaed yet, ok lolz?

i mean, nun of us has even plaied a demo yet but we know exactcly what it iz going to be like!

kkthzbai

Blizzard fans have been complaining about games like Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 since before they were even in development, WHY CAN'T FALLOUT 3 BE TORN APART IN THE SAME FASHION

I am in the camp of: Fallout 3 was destined to fail from the beginning because many fans of the series regularly roll around in the first two games and rub them all over their bodies; they really don't want a revival, they want a turn-based game in graphics only the 90's can bring them and if  you can't give them that then god help you.

I probably won't buy Fallout 3 because Oblivion was pushing my system. Plus Oblivion was a pretty mediocre game, along with Morrowind. So their track record isn't that great.

Fallout and Fallout 2 didn't hold my attention for too long either, though I did like the setting and the art direction and the campyness of it all. So I am pretty indifferent on a lot of this.

History disagrees with you though.  Oblivion was a travesty to the Elder Scrolls Series but it still sold amazingly well.  Your mistake is that you assume that Fallout 3 is being targeted at Fallout fans, when the developers disdain for Fallout fans has been made repeatedly apparent.  The game is not targeted at Fallout fans.  That is why they hate it so much.  It's targeted at Oblivion fans.  The millions and millions of Oblivion fans, who will all by it without thinking.

Sure Bethesda say they're Fallout fans, but they also said Radiant AI could make character buy new equipment, invite you up to their room, practice archery, feed their dog, and light their dog on fire when it was keeping them awake.  Not to mention that earlier in Fallout 3's development they swore up and down that it wasn't Oblivion with guns, and now that's what they're actually saying it is.

1. Fallout 3 keeps the feeling, and black humor of the first 2 games.
2. You can join at least the ****ing Brotherhood of Steel.
3. You can beat the game by not killing anyone directly.
4. The options of are mostly in the gray area of morals.
5. You can kill children.
6. VATS works for both melee, and ranged weapons.
7. VATS allows the fighting to be extremely strategic.
8. AI is actually good.
9. The mini nuke and it's ammo is rare.
10. Traits and perks work as they used too, and they make more sense. (Oh come on... This makes me worry if that Bethesda makes a game based after D&D you get a feat every level.)

Actual current Scenario: As far as we know for sure.
1. Doesn't look good, with nuclear explosions everywhere, and mindless super-orc-mutants.  The jokes so far have not been up to par.
2. No information
3.Todd Howard says it's impossible, Pete Hines says it's possible but he wouldn't recommend trying it.
4. Not many examples, but those there have been have been split clearly between good, sociopath, and neutral.
5. You cannot kill children.
6. VATS lets you attack in melee and ranged but with melee you can't target specific parts, and you automatically hit.
7. Gameplay videos show that VATS allows you to pause the game at any time and cycle through targets.  If you are using a ranged weapon you can then select to shoot either the head, body, l/r arm, l/r leg, or weapon of the enemy target and you're given a percentage chance to hit.  Once you select your target the game unpauses and your character freezes and plays a canned firing animation as enemies continue to shoot at you in slow motion.  In the video the player always hit and always instantly killed the target, but this is most likely due to cheating for the demonstration since the player also seemed to be soaking up bullets like large dry sponge in a small puddle.
8. Just like in Oblivion they promise good AI though they aren't promising as much interestingly enough.  They have only really given two examples.  Characters will now lean on walls sometimes.  In combat, characters will use whatever they can find for cover unless they're "Too bad ass" to use cover.  The gameplay videos showed none of this.  instead showing enemies either standing still and firing or charging, though one enemy dropped her weapon and crouched in the middle of a bridge while being shot repeatedly by teddy bears.
9. That's what they've said.
10. Traits and perks are merged into one because 'no one could tell the difference'  The former traits have no negative side effects, and are now given extra positive side effects.  Apparently.  The only one shown was bloody mess which causes a raider to lose every single on of his limbs when shot in the head by a sniper rifle, and causes a bit of extra damage.  You get perks every level because 'people got confused' when that didn't happen.  One example of a new perk that is used very often is "Lady Killer" (Or Black Widow for female characters).  It causes it causes male PCs to do more damage to female characters in combat, and give them some extra dialogue options. (D&D Give you a Feat every three levels... like in Fallout, unless you get bonus feats due to your class.)