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[Duke 2.0]

In any event, lets try to keep the whole "us vs. them" mentality out of the thread when it comes to people that like ASCII and those that like graphics, this thread could explode into something horrible otherwise.

RAWR I HATE ASCIII!  BURN IN THE DEMON PITS FOR BEING AN ASCIII LOVER!

;P

 GRAPHICS WILL BE THE DEATH OF THIS GAME GWWWARRRR!!!!!1

 XD

 But yes, I would like more graphical options near the final version. And by final I mean version 1.0. Then we start the other things, like version 2.0.

 But I would like an ASCII option, just because it's so easy to identify things. Except goblins and moutnian goats and groundhogs.

[Hellzon]

But I would like an ASCII option, just because it's so easy to identify things. Except goblins and moutnian goats and groundhogs.

Also elves and elephants. Or cougars and colossi.

/Ascii user

[Draco18s]

RAWR I HATE ASCIII!  BURN IN THE DEMON PITS FOR BEING AN ASCIII LOVER!

;P

GRAPHICS WILL BE THE DEATH OF THIS GAME GWWWARRRR!!!!!1

 XD

And here's where I have no idea what your real stance on graphics is.  I said what I did, because it was my opposing viewpoint (if taken polarized to the extreme) and I'm pretty sure people know that.  I also misspelled ASCII (first one was accidental, but I decided not to fix it as it made it more obvious that I was joking).

So I don't know if you did that just to counter me, or if you did it for that AND you do use graphic tiles.  Still:

[ToxicFrog]

Assuming that the game remains purely top-down 2D (which is likely), I am sure that you will always be able to use a graphics set that makes it look like it does currently if you wish.  Someone might need to make such a graphics set, but I'm confident that it will be done if/when the game doesn't natively support the type of ASCII rendering that is used currently.

The game isn't using ASCII rendering. If it did, there would be no tileset support at all, it would be possible to run it in a terminal, openGL performance would be irrelevant, and so forth.

What it has is a standard graphical tile based 2d renderer. The reason much of it looks like tty by default is that tty graphics are easy even when it's not really running in text mode, and graphics are neither a priority, nor a skill, of Toady's. The reason it looks like that to some extent even after installing a tileset is that many of the tiles are shared between world objects and UI text and there is not, yet, a way to replace them seperately.

[Sowelu]

Man, I totally can't wait to see a built-in 3d view.  The current setup is very utilitarian and maybe offers the best controls, but boy I sure wouldn't complain if an isometric view or even fully-3d view got added.

I want my controls to stay the way they are though, at least as an option.  I'm sure it'll happen that way.

[MMad]

Offering an (init) option for old school people to use a tileset identical to the current look seems pretty much a no-brainer. But it would seem very strange to me for the default to be the old ASCII style if better first-party alternatives were available.

I figure many people would be liable to download the game, start it once, get shocked by the "graphics" and promptly delete it. Heck, I've watched in person as a couple of co-workers (who were game developers, mind you, not exactly the most squemish of gamers) did exactly this. If things were at least intelligible from the start, more might stick with the game long enough to get hooked (which, as you know, isn't very long at all which should statistically lead to more donations for Toady, which would mean a more secure future for DF.

Offering the basic game download along with a link to a third-party tileset hosted somewhere else would probably be ineffective, people probably wouldn't want to mess around with trying to install new tilesets when they haven't even tried the game. What *would* work is offering a download with tilesets installed, like May Green's pack. Of course, if the best possible newbie DF experience is supplied by a third party, then Toady is stuck in that whole "dependant on other people" situation which he clearly wishes to avoid. So all in all, making a default graphics tileset from scratch would seem the most sensible solution. Judging by the intro movie I'd say the Adams would be up to it.

Oh yeah, and a built-in 3d view (not necessarily to play the game in, just to more easily view and visualize complicated multi-level terrain or construction from different angles) would be totally awesome.

[Exponent]

I bet that the Adams brothers wouldn't even have to create their own full graphics set once that ability is available.  I have no doubt that at least some in the community would be willing to create a full graphics set and officially make it public domain material, allowing Bay 12 Games to use it as a default for Dwarf Fortress if they wished.  And offhand, I can't think of any reason, aside from aesthetic tastes, why Tarn and Zach wouldn't be willing to do that.  Well, I can't think of any technical reason, at least.  I could understand if they wanted the game to be 100% theirs, even if it took longer to make a graphics set.

The game isn't using ASCII rendering. If it did, there would be no tileset support at all, it would be possible to run it in a terminal, openGL performance would be irrelevant, and so forth.

What it has is a standard graphical tile based 2d renderer. The reason much of it looks like tty by default is that tty graphics are easy even when it's not really running in text mode, and graphics are neither a priority, nor a skill, of Toady's. The reason it looks like that to some extent even after installing a tileset is that many of the tiles are shared between world objects and UI text and there is not, yet, a way to replace them seperately.

I know this, I must have just used some slightly ambiguous wording.  By "type of ASCII rendering that is used currently", I meant the use of ASCII character codes to identify all tiles, and the default use of a graphics set that uses ASCII character graphics and no additional creature graphics.

[Sowelu]

From my understanding as a dev, here's the main reason why Toady wouldn't want to rely on someone else's graphics pack or interface:

"Okay, I want to add a feature where dragons can have ICE breath now, too.  Except...that will break other peoples' interfaces, so now I have to give them all this info, and wait for them to update tilesets in their style..."

Or "Okay, I want dwarves to be able to be covered in acid...wait, everyone has special interfaces for covered in fire, but nobody has acid, so it'll be weeks before the popular interface has any clue what's going on...and that means nobody will PLAY the new version for a while, because now the official stuff is unsupported by the other common essential utilities."

If the tilesets are in the public domain, then of course Toady can just modify them--but that's a little frustrating to try and work out the dynamics for.  It's way easier in terms of collaboration to do it all yourself, than it is to do 99% and have to deal with other people for that last 1%.

[Rilder]

I'm sure it will be something sudden, one day it will be ASCII and the next day it will be fully 3D requiring DX11 and a 2GB Graphics card.

[Impaler[WrG]]

The way the games currently developed seems to me to be an intentional effort to drive off anyone who's not ultra hard-core keeping DF a 'niche' game.  The graphics and UI together are easily driving off 80% of the potential audience.  Can you imagine how Sim City would have languished if it had been ASCII and lacked mouse support, thats ware DF seems to be going.  Maybe Toady feels he's getting sufficient donations already and feels no need to attract new players by making the game more attractive or easier to play.  I can't see how their could be any though to making ASCII graphics the default 'out of the box' appearance for a game that your personal income depends on.  Artists work on commission and are rather cheap for this kind of thing when weighed against the bump in popularity it would create.

[Torak]

The way the games currently developed seems to me to be an intentional effort to drive off anyone who's not ultra hard-core keeping DF a 'niche' game.  The graphics and UI together are easily driving off 80% of the potential audience.  Can you imagine how Sim City would have languished if it had been ASCII and lacked mouse support, thats ware DF seems to be going.  Maybe Toady feels he's getting sufficient donations already and feels no need to attract new players by making the game more attractive or easier to play.  I can't see how their could be any though to making ASCII graphics the default 'out of the box' appearance for a game that your personal income depends on.  Artists work on commission and are rather cheap for this kind of thing when weighed against the bump in popularity it would create.

Far as I can tell, you're rather oblivious to the developmental process of DF and what Toady plans on doing in the future, especially when it comes to the interface.

[Draco18s]

The way the games currently developed seems to me to be an intentional effort to drive off anyone who's not ultra hard-core keeping DF a 'niche' game.  The graphics and UI together are easily driving off 80% of the potential audience.  Can you imagine how Sim City would have languished if it had been ASCII and lacked mouse support, thats ware DF seems to be going.

Sim City was good?  As a game it was terrible because the player had to carefully balance many many aspects of a city without knowing any of the connections ("Sims need more commercial space!"  Ok, lets designate a whole swath...wait.  I've got a ton of commercial space already designated that's unused...WTF?)

[Davion]

Far as I can tell, you're rather oblivious to the developmental process of DF and what Toady plans on doing in the future, especially when it comes to the interface.

And rather oblivious to how much it would cost to create graphics for everything in Dwarf Fortress, which would be a waste of money anyway since eventually modding will take care of that altogether.

[yggiz]

Dwarf Fortress will always be niche, rejoice in your gaming superiority over the masses!

 until multiplayer adventure mode is in, along with railguns

[Mr.Person]

Dwarf Fortress will always be niche, rejoice in your gaming superiority over the masses!

 until multiplayer adventure mode is in, along with railguns

I've said it before and I'll say it again in bold this time. Are you looking?

Dwarf Fortress is no longer a niche game (for large forums)

Ok, let me make a qualification. If you meant the unwashed masses as in people who only use the internet to use Myspace or Facebook, then yes, you are 100% correct. However, if you meant "unwashed masses" to mean everybody who browses popular web forums (excepting Gaia Online) then you are dead wrong. If you meant people who tried DF but quit, then you're an elitist prick.

Just think of it this way: How did you find Dwarf Fortress? Unless you say Boatmurdered (comes from Something Awful, a gigantic community) or 4chan (another gigantic community) then most people are going to say something different from what everyone else said. You can now safely presume that the community of whatever your source is knows or knew about DF at one time.

Let's look at the Wiki. The front page has links to 7 seperate large forums with threads that are each 25 or more pages. Something Awful has even more threads related to DF (They're archieved.) Additionally, the wiki is available in 4 non-Enlgish languages. It was started in earnest early August. That's fast by Wikia standards. The vast majority of wikis are available exclusively in English. Let's take this out as well. DFFD is a file uploading site dedicated exclusivly to DF. It seems small, but that's a big deal. Don't forget about DFMA, another site made exclusively for DF. Most freeware games are lucky to have an offical site and fan forums.

All that aside, however, the vast majority of people in the world do not know about DF. However, I would venture to say a decently good percentage of internet forum users at least know about DF, ~4% if I had to guess. Well, I guess if you included very small special intrest forums as seperate, but I'm referring more to general large forums with discussions on a large range of subjects.

You know what? TBH, I don't think redoing the interface to be streamlined will entice extra donations. Mouse support will help an ok amount. Tileset support will help a lot for the first month but will then do nothing to help donations. An included tileset is the only thing that would really spike donations.

It's funny actually, I can't play Nethack or Angband in ASCII, but I'll play ADOM and DF in ASCII just fine. I bet it's the colors or something. Plus, Toady is really good at drawing things in ASCII, like ballistas and workshops.