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[Dadamh]

Of course, if you are talking about obsidian, then you have magma.

If you have magma, it's not much work to melt down the five million (narrow iron chain mail)s you get and have metal anyway.

Who needs to mine?

[Teldin]

Metal is completely unnecessary and most of my fortresses only have magma so I can do fun stuff with it, like make magma moats or throw prisoners into it.

I only tend to put a row or two of basic weapon traps, using weapons I scavenge off enemies (ie. large daggers) or wooden spiked balls. My army consists of the Dwarven Varsity Wrestling Team (go Fighting Urists!) along with a cadre of sharpshooter crossbowmen and huge piles of bone bolts. Occasionally I'll make a rare elite platoon who use scavenged weapons like iron spears or stuff I buy from the caravan, or if I'm lucky enough to get a wide swath of obsidian early on I crank out short swords like there's no tomorrow (and often about 50% of my military is in bed with blade wounds whenever a siege comes along.. woops.) On that note, obsidian short swords are excellent to use en masse in weapons traps.

Also, a legendary leatherworker (in my current fort I got one 2nd year due to strange mood) can churn out pile after pile of masterful leather shields and masterful leather armor at near-zero cost, so armor is not an issue and they all have good shields to spar with and get their shield user skill up. IMO there's no need for a metal industry at all; even the dwarven economy works on credit and doesn't need coins.

[Doppel]

I suck at preplanning a fortress into good metalworks fairly quickly, even if i have more then enough magnetite, instead if i have magma and sand i am fairly quick in setting up huge glass production for for example traps, enough obsidian for enough masterwork swords and imported leathers for masterwork leather armors.
I tend to wait for a armorer or weaponsmith to have a mood before i actually begin anything metal related and i will thus also train a fair amount of peasants into dabbling armorer or weaponsmithing to maximize the potential of a welcome mood. I also tend to store metal asmuch as i can, smelting almost everything i can get my hands on into precious bars (easy to store) apart from a few raw ores (because they come in handy when certain moods strike). I also play on very small maps (almost all smaller then 3x3, without a lot of z difference), so its hard to get myself good amounts of wood, so i also tend to embark with lots of them (about 250 units). Crossbows and bolts are mostly made out of bone, untill after a good amount of time.

[WCG]

This is a very interesting thread, since I'm on my first fortress, and I have no idea how representative it is. I've got all sorts of magnetite and limestone (and plenty of all kinds of ore, except for aluminum and gold), but I haven't found any bituminous coal at all (and just a little lignite). And I haven't found any magma.

I've got sand, too. So I need huge quantities of charcoal. Luckily, I've got trees, but they're increasingly far from my fortress, which means that I lose one woodcutter in most goblin ambushes (if they're wielding crossbows, at least). Yeah, those darn war dogs tend to lie around in the fortress all day, instead of sticking with their assigned dwarf.

But I've never even seen obsidian, so I wonder how this is so much easier to get than steel? Still, I like the idea of just going with what's available. Wouldn't it get boring if every fortress had access to the same resources, so you played the game identically every time?

Varied resources means that you go with your advantages, depending on that particular location, so that would encourage you to play a different game each time. If you've got sand and magma (or lots of wood), run with your glass industries. If not, use what you DO have.

Well, I'm just a newbie, but man I love this game!

Bill

[XmasApe]

But I've never even seen obsidian, so I wonder how this is so much easier to get than steel? Still, I like the idea of just going with what's available. Wouldn't it get boring if every fortress had access to the same resources, so you played the game identically every time?

Steel requires multiple ingredients, involving up to two materials that come in seams and a flux stone.
Obsidian makes up entire z-levels with seams in it.

[John Johnston]

With my previous fortress, I was finding it slightly annoying that the "good" iron armour that my dorfs were using was hard to distinguish on the stocks screen from the "bad" iron armour that the goblin invaders donated me.  For instance, narrow iron gauntlets come under the same heading as iron gauntlets.  There was no way to make steel on the map (no flux, and no flux available through trade, although steel bars and items were available via trade.)

To combat this my current fortress uses only imported steel plate armour and weapons (mostly paid for with large quantities of narrow giant cave spider silk garments).  It is easy to designate armour and weapons of every other material for dumping (few trees and no magma, so no melting) and retain only the steel stuff.  Imported quality isn't the best, but even ordinary steel stuff is good enough to allow a champion to hack hir way through the opposition, so no bother.

Anyway, point is I have a limited metalworking capability and that's focussed on making lead bins and silver statues, but the military is still kitted out in good metal gear regardless.

I seem to get 2 full suits of steel plate per dorf caravan by asking for the various pieces at "half" priority.

[LordBucket]

Much has been said, but a few responses:

Haven:
one place metal shows it's worth is in trade goods.

It's not like there's any shortage of trade goods. Personally, by my second year I'm generally throwing ten to fifteen thousand worth of profit at traders just to clear my hallways of junk stone.

Kagus:
You *will* need magma.

...pretty much, yes. It's not totally unrealistic to smelt ore and make metal items on a heavily forested map, but it seems like the biggest source of metal for most players is the goblins. And it's not practical to use wood fuel to melt down items. It takes way too much fuel.

So you pretty much do need magma to have any meaningful metal industry, and you need to wait for goblins. The problems being that:

1) Magma is something you absolutely need to do on purpose. I've never seen magma on a map unless I specifically went looking for it. Personally I tend to NOT do this, because maps with magma tend to be low FPS maps.

2) It takes YEARS for the goblins to show up in large numbers. So even if you do have magma, it takes years before you can start serious metal production, before you can start serious training your weapon and armor smiths...by which time you probably already have several legendary, or near-legendary crafters of every other profession you care about. Why bother start up a metal industry, why bother starting to train a weapon and armor smith from low level...when you already have a legendary leatherworker, mason, carpenter, etc?

Kagus:
A wood-based fortress is easier to get up and running, but will be difficult to sustain

...whatever extent it's more difficult to maintain a wood-based fortress is pretty much trivial. For lots of reasons. "Heavily forested" maps are easier to find that maps with lots of metal, and you can get them gaunrunteed when you choose your starting location, as opposed to metal ores, which are random, and even if you choose a likely place for metal, what you actually get isn't certain. Also, trees grow back...so you can never run out, unlike metal, which does run out. And, while I've never played a game long enough to have it happen myself, I've read that eventually the goblin sieges STOP. What must that be like? Dedicating so many years of a game to a metal industry and then one day Poof! it just dries up and dies? Meanwhile, all your wood and glass procurement methods continue on into perpetuity.

Also, because of the quantities involved it's very easy to get wood from trade, whereas it really isn't practcial to get metal from trade. Traders are perfectly happy to bring LOTS of wood, whereas no matter how important you tell them metal is, they never seem to bring more than a few bars at a time.

Finally, if you trade in that anvil because you're never going to use it, you can use the 1000 points to bring in an extra 300 logs with you. That's enough to supply all your dwarves with beds for the entire lifetime of the fortress, and build 100 barrels. Between that and trade, you don't even need to chop down trees. If you don't bring axes, that's another 200 logs you could bring if you really wanted. That's enough wood to run a thoroughly wood-based fortress for years without ever cutting trees or trading for wood. Add in trade, and it's completely trivial to run a thoroughly wood based fortress on a woodless map simply by bringing logs with you and trading for more when the caravans come.

How much metal do you generally bring? Maybe...five bars?

Dadamh
if you are talking about obsidian, then you have magma

Not neccessarily. Obsidian occurs naturally. It's not difficult to find entire z-levels made of obsidian. Sure, if you want that, you need to look for it when you choose your starting location, but in my experience it's easier to find obsidian layers than to find magma. And, obsidian layers can be found in flat, small, high-FPS maps, unlike magma, which often means low-FPS mountain maps.

Quiller
I guess the point is

My point was exactly what the post title says. Metaless fortresses are a good thing. Not just "acceptable," but GOOD. It's actually BETTER to not bother with metal.

 * Having a practical metal industry requires more concessions in your starting location than any other type of industry
 * It's easier, cheaper, and more practical to start, as well as to maintain any industry OTHER than metal
 * Even once you get it started...metal industry isn't much better than anything else. Armor is the only thing that metal IS better for...but because of the skill training, it takes YEARS for metal armor to significantly pass leather.
 * Metal industry requires more dwarves dedicated to more skills than anything else. Wood burner, furnace operator, armorsmith, weaponsmith, etc. Meanwhile, most of the alternatives that replace a metal industry are all dwarven skills that you have anyway. Whether or not you have a metal industry, you have definitely have a carpenter, a mason, etc. Making wooden or stone traps uses skills that every fortress always has no matter what. Metal traps requires a specialized dwarf training a skill that you wouldn't otherwise use. Making stone swords uses a skill that every fortress always has no matter what. Making wooden sheilds uses a skill that every fortress always has. Again...metal...requires massive specialization.
 * It's massively easier to train relevant skill for everything other than metal skills
 * By the time you can start training metal skills, you probably already have legendary crafters for everything else. Yes, metal armor crafted by a legendary armorsmith absorbs more than twice as much damage as leather armor crafted by a legendary leatherworker. But the amount of time, effort and expenditure it takes to make a legendary armorsmith is impractically ridiculous. I've been playing since 2d, and I've never had one. Ever. I don't think I've ever made it halfway even in games that I started with a Proficient one.
 * Even once you get it going, the benefits of a metal industry aren't that great. If I need to already be able to break a goblin siege to get my metal industry going...what do I need the metal for? Metal industry is basically just a timesink.

Metal is seriously gimped. It's certainly much EASIER to not bother...but even if you do, the benefits just aren't that great. If you spend the time and energy that it takes to get a metal industry basically functional on something else...you'll generally be better off for it.

The only people who are benefitting from more than very casual metal industries are people who are using reveal utilities to cheat and find magma within the first few hours of playing a map.

If you have to use third party utilities to benefit from metal...again, I think it's safe to say that it's fairly well gimped.

[grelphy]

I seldom explicitly search for good metal maps (other priorities: magma for FUN, terrifying biome), but I see no especially compelling reason not to make use of whatever's available. If you have no magma, there's the fuel issue, but again, I usually seek out magma (for FUN, not metalworking--that's just a side benefit). After that, just smelt any ores you happen to come across and make them into barrels or something. I play super-defensively and so a well-equipped military is low on the list of needs--netal (copper, typically) is a drop-in local replacement for the wood I'm unwilling to risk cutting (damn zombie camels).

So yeah--not neccesary, depending on your style not worth working towards, but there's no reason to *avoid* metal.

[MetBoy]

Well, here's my $.02 on the subject...
You can make great crossbows from wood, and you can make great swords from obsidian. The only things that require metal for which there are no replacements are picks and axes... but quality doesn't matter for those two in their main required function.

Is a metal-less fort possible? Yes, at least in the short run, but without metal armor your military will suffer badly, unless you depend heavily on traps. I also find that metal furniture is good for keeping picky nobles happy.

So what I like to do is put 'Metals Industry' on the bottom of my 'to do' list when building and running the fort, but if I come across good veins of useful metal (here speaking of any metal that can be used in making weapons/armor) I will likely set up a stockpile for ore and mine it out. I NEVER depend on being able to make metal. I will prepare for the opportunity.

As for anvils in the starting goods, I only take it if I also bring along some ore, coal, maybe charcoal, so I can leave out picks and axes. It slows things down a little, but you start making stuff right at the begining. Other than that, the anvil is just a really expensive item that won't be useful for an annoyingly long while.

[Skanky]

I also find that metal furniture is good for keeping picky nobles happy.

Even there though, that metal furniture requires 3 bars of metal to make, hence 3 lots of ore. If you made stone furniture from the ores instead, you would get 3 tables or chairs for the same price, making more nobles happy. You would likely get even better quality furniture too, due to the ease of training up masonry compared to metalworking.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

You don't need anything in the way of armor and weapons industry. Simply kill every dwarven caravan that comes using a water trap to seal them in and drown them. Same with invading seiges. Inside, behind the water trap, you have about 100 stupid dwarves who are wearing mismatched leather armor and cheap weapons you stole from previous dwarven caravans. Anything that comes through will kill a bunch, but the survivors gain skill and pick up the dropped weapons. And they really have nothing to do all day but bring in lumber and fish from outside and work out in the screw pump and catapult training room.
Farther inside, away from the surface, is your corp of 7 legendary crafters who support themselves food-wise and throw crafts out for the 100 soapers and cheesemakers to sell. Incoming caravans bring metal and gems in exchange, and these are thrown down into the vaults with the Seven.

Incoming nobles get to sleep on the floor with the grubby masses.

It's perfect. And you don't need metal or wood or stone or bone. You just need lots of dwarven blood.

[Kagus]

I've been working on a project for a bit where I settled in a relatively forested plains area.  The main goal was to build one large building out of wood, fully furnished.

Three game years later, the map is completely treeless.  I have two woodcutters sitting around aimlessly all day because there's nothing to do but wait until one or two more saplings pop up so I can hack them down.

Eventually I just gave in and modded a reaction that gave me five free wooden logs (I botched it the first time, so it needed fuel.  That was smart).  Without that, I could be fifteen years into the game with the second floor barely finished.


Early on, I had more wood than I thought I could possibly do anything with.  Later, I was planting a woodcutting designation across the entire map each time I saw a single grown tree.

Yes, it will last forever.  But it won't be too quick about it.

[hexrei]

The map I am playing has no trees at all. I've had to buy timber whenever possibly (and for some reason the last four or five caravans have brought none even though i've been begging for it in the trade agreement) but luckily I had a lot of ore in the earth as well as magma so I am able to magma forge metals. The only time I miss wood is when I need to build windmills, axles, and other mechanics that seem to require wood.

I'm doing pretty well, nearly invincible, I always focus on irrigation and farming first so i never had any food problems except when I accidentally flood my farming chambers. i will definitely be in some trouble if my mountain runs dry of ore, but I don't see that happening before this fortress gets to the point that it can't be further improved (already huge with 190 dwarves, count, 2 countesses, philosopher, dungeon master, hoardmaster, tax collector, etc)

[Eita]

I also find that metal furniture is good for keeping picky nobles happy.

Even there though, that metal furniture requires 3 bars of metal to make, hence 3 lots of ore. If you made stone furniture from the ores instead, you would get 3 tables or chairs for the same price, making more nobles happy. You would likely get even better quality furniture too, due to the ease of training up masonry compared to metalworking.

I do believe you've gotten Adamantine items confused with plain old metal ones. Last time I checked, they only took one bar.

[Ashery]

I also find that metal furniture is good for keeping picky nobles happy.

Even there though, that metal furniture requires 3 bars of metal to make, hence 3 lots of ore. If you made stone furniture from the ores instead, you would get 3 tables or chairs for the same price, making more nobles happy. You would likely get even better quality furniture too, due to the ease of training up masonry compared to metalworking.

I do believe you've gotten Adamantine items confused with plain old metal ones. Last time I checked, they only took one bar.

All metal furniture requires 3 bars to forge except for chains, animal traps, buckets and blocks.

Not that that'll affect me at all...A bit over a hundred iron bars (After crafting 20odd plate chest pieces, and a bunch of other goods) and another 300 magnetite still lying around waiting to be smelted. This is with four smelters working at near full capacity, hehe...Although two are smelting copper to fuel my barrel/bin needs.

hex: I'm surprised they aren't bringing any wood...My second dwarven caravan, where I requested for them to bring as much wood as possible, brought a good 25-30 logs.