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[penguinofhonor]

I responded to a flame with another flame

Nothing good ever comes out of this.

[Tormy]

Wohohoo chill lads. 

[Torak]

Nothing good ever comes out of this.

Which was exactly my point.

[Draco18s]

I would like to say I have only used a 3rd person program once in my DF lifetime.

I used prospector (and Latitude/Longitued) for a while because I wanted to do certain things that required hidden features.  Such as my Adamantine Speed Run: how soon can I get some out of the ground, and how much before the migrants come? (Answer: about 54 pieces before I got the king).

Currently I'm looking to do a Cliffside Dwelling fort (needs chasm/bottomless pit--I think the pit would work better, given how this last chasm map is turning out).  Etc.

I used reveal once for a map-export (showing the stratification of adamantine, back when that was news--interestingly, that was the Adamantine Speed Run fort).

I have nothing against utilities of any kind, I just tend not to use them, but will if the kind of fort I'm designing needs it, I'll use it.  Such as DFwall (the auto-wall building tool before mass-rewall was worked in) so I could build a giant pyramid without having to do all the keystrokes.

I tried DC once, but couldn't get python to work (I think I was interested in seeing what this one moody dwarf actually wanted, as I'd given up trying to find the right material).

Anyway, I have once again thrown the topic off topic.

[penguinofhonor]

Nothing good ever comes out of this.

Which was exactly my point.

It would be a good idea to stop doing it in the first place, though.

[Teeto_K]

You know, this thread, and people commenting on dwarf foreman, has got me thinking.

Every time a migrant wave shows up, I literally spend 30 minutes examining my labor force, and reallocating jobs, with the game paused. I find that I can't remember who had what obscure odd job added to their list for an emergency, and often find my cook busying himself with wood burning, or similar things.

A long and tedious drudgery of "U, V, Rename, Zoom, Examine labors, Space, U, examine labors of related workers, Zoom to all of them, remove the relevant ones, U, V, edit profession name of new comer, zoom, add/subtract new labors". In a 23 immigrant wave, this is quite daunting. (I rename the dorfs specifically so I can tell who hasn't been examined yet)

Often times, an immigrant wave signals the end of my play session, because I just don't feel like dealing with it right then.

While I wouldn't necessarily say that "Dwarf foreman" itself should be built into the game, I think I'd like to see a new screen, similar to the "Millitary" screen, devoted to labors. A list of all your dorfs, and a horizontally scrollable list of their active labors next to them. It would make comparing specific dorfs much faster. Perhaps when I have more time, I should draft up a design and submit it as a suggestion...

I guess what I'm saying is that I empathise with those who feel dependent on that particular external utility, because I see the frustration of job management affecting my own play.

I question the wisdom of blanket-calling persons relying on it "Tools" though. I mean, DF isn't some higher calling, and playing the new version isn't some sacred duty that should be put before your own enjoyment of the game, or else you are a "bad person". In fact, the existence of such utilities and people being vocal about their reliance on them can easily be a red-flag that Toady can watch for. The recent in-built start-location search feature, and ability to reveal features at embark, is just one example of the core game being improved based on a desire expressed, and formerly fulfilled, through an external utility.

[Torak]

I question the wisdom of blanket-calling persons relying on it "Tools" though. I mean, DF isn't some higher calling, and playing the new version isn't some sacred duty that should be put before your own enjoyment of the game, or else you are a "bad person". In fact, the existence of such utilities and people being vocal about their reliance on them can easily be a red-flag that Toady can watch for. The recent in-built start-location search feature, and ability to reveal features at embark, is just one example of the core game being improved based on a desire expressed, and formerly fulfilled, through an external utility.

It's not a good thing when people stop playing a game because a certain utility is not updated. Say that the developer for foreman stopped updating it, what would happen, would people just stop playing the new versions because their little crutch broke? If they did stop, they specifically are the tools, not the people who use them as an addition to the game, the ones who use it as the entire base of their experience are.


Edited some redundancy.

[danielout]

It's not a good thing when people stop playing a game because a certain utility is not updated. Say that the developer for foreman stopped updating it, what would happen, would people just stop playing the new versions because their little crutch broke? If they did stop, they specifically are the tools, not the people who use them as an addition to the game, the ones who use it as the entire base of their experience are.

If the new features don't outweigh the hassle caused by not being able to use said utilities for an individual, then why should they upgrade? Also, if the utility is having that big of an impact on their gameplay, then perhaps the core features need to be examined.

Let's also not forget that some things just aren't fun to people; if micromanaging 120 dwarves isn't fun to you, you shouldn't have to. Gaming, for me, is about fun. So I'll do what is fun for me; if that is using a utility, playing an old version, playing a different game, etc. I'm not really sure where it is your place to call people names for how they play games.

[sweitx]

I like Dwarf Foreman, and playing a new version made me realize how much hassle Foreman cuts down.  But now, I've getting into a new rhythm in name any dwarf with multiple labor activated a special tag (a * in this case).  That way I can go and review it.

It would be nice to have a foreman like utility built in.  Although I think Toady already has that on his to do list (Presentation Arc?)

[notxmania]

I think this flame war is all TOADY'S fault.

[matryx]

I question the wisdom of blanket-calling persons relying on it "Tools" though. I mean, DF isn't some higher calling, and playing the new version isn't some sacred duty that should be put before your own enjoyment of the game, or else you are a "bad person". In fact, the existence of such utilities and people being vocal about their reliance on them can easily be a red-flag that Toady can watch for. The recent in-built start-location search feature, and ability to reveal features at embark, is just one example of the core game being improved based on a desire expressed, and formerly fulfilled, through an external utility.

It's not a good thing when people stop playing a game because a certain utility is not updated. Say that the developer for foreman stopped updating it, what would happen, would people just stop playing the new versions because their little crutch broke? If they did stop, they specifically are the tools, not the people who use them as an addition to the game, the ones who use it as the entire base of their experience are.


Edited some redundancy.

Equally, given how quickly Foreman / Tweak / other tools are updated, to insult people for waiting a few days before jumping on a new version is a bit jerkish.  If such things hadn't been updated for several versions then yes I would agree it's time to move on, but that isn't the situation here.
Be mindful when you write, it seems from a reader's (my) perspective that's it's often baiting in one way or other.

[Bromor Neckbeard]

So, is combat reports working for 39f yet?  As fascinating as all this discussion of exactly who is a tool and who isn't is, nobody bothered to answer the question in the OP, a question which I was wondering about too.

[Torak]

I assume that if it hasn't been by n ow, he's just waiting for the next version to fiddle around with it, since the game is going under a rather major change in the next months.

[Deon]

Now rename the thread please.