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[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Aren't those Abishai?  Abishai are not demons, and they wouldn't like being called that.

http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/abishai

If you're interested in Planescape that campaign setting is basically abandonware.  It's still supported by fans though, this is the official site.

http://www.planewalker.com

[Aqizzar]

That's exactly why I call them demons.  Those two guys especially are great - I always pictured them wearing tophats as they scoff at their fellow barflys.

If you are interested in game design, the vision statement for the game is a jewel in itself.
Here is a link:
(CONTAIN MANY SPOILERS)http://www.rpgwatch.com/files/Files/00-0208/Torment_Vision_Statement_1997.pdf

This is what happen when the designers are genuinely excited about the game they are making.

Holy crap this thing is funny.  It's so '90s it hurts, but it's clear they loved tossing ideas at the wall.  Pity technology wouldn't let them do everything.

Tiling is for bathrooms, not games.

"Fireball" can go hide in the fucking corner when you unleash your arsenal.

Equip gnarly stuff.  (Seriously, when was the last time you heard someone say 'gnarly'?)

"The best part about Ultima 7 was that you're guys were always hungry.  Nothing like spoon-feeding your companions to make you feel like a hero.  Hellloooo, fun!"

Forget fragile elves, rock-humping dwarves, useless hobbits and with them, the mind-numbing boredom of every RPG ever released.

To be honest, a lot of modern developers should read this too.  It would do them good just to remember what raw enthusiasm used to feel like.

[Gantolandon]

Holy crap this thing is funny.  It's so '90s it hurts, but it's clear they loved tossing ideas at the wall.  Pity technology wouldn't let them do everything.

No, it's somewhat normal in software development. When you see a vision, you can bet the final product will lack half of the thing the developers wanted to see there. Sometimes because they are too hard or impossible to do, sometimes just because they are not important enough.

To be honest, a lot of modern developers should read this too.  It would do them good just to remember what raw enthusiasm used to feel like.

I'm sure most of their visions look similar.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Somehow I seriously doubt that with stuff like Oblivion and most of EA's games.  Seriously, what was the vision for Madden 06? 07? 08?

Ok, maybe people start out with better visions to begin with and then dump them, but it's not because of lack of technology these days.  It's just a matter of greed and lazyness possibly modified with a bit of despair.

[Gantolandon]

Somehow I seriously doubt that with stuff like Oblivion and most of EA's games.  Seriously, what was the vision for Madden 06? 07? 08?

Ok, maybe people start out with better visions to begin with and then dump them, but it's not because of lack of technology these days.  It's just a matter of greed and lazyness.

You can call it so. The underlying principle is that the game won't start to make money until it's done and bought. So some features are dumped - this is too expensive to do, this will take so long and the product won't be ready before Christmas, and so. And, of course, some things are tossed out by the window just because the executives think it's a waste of time and money to work at them. Sometimes they're even right. Some features can look good on the paper but when they are implemented, they go horribly wrong and don't add anything to the game. Yes, someone could flesh them out, but remember - until the game sells, the company will not see even a penny.

With games like Oblivion, it's propably not the matter of lack of imagination of the developer. I would know if I saw their vision, but I believe it was full of ideas which were given up later. Someone propably tried to guess what will bring more profit and failed miserably.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

This game rocked. Unconditionally.

If of thy mortal goods thou art bereft
Excepting just two loaves
Sell the one and with the dole
Buy Planescape: Torment and shut your hole!

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Somehow I seriously doubt that with stuff like Oblivion and most of EA's games.  Seriously, what was the vision for Madden 06? 07? 08?

Ok, maybe people start out with better visions to begin with and then dump them, but it's not because of lack of technology these days.  It's just a matter of greed and lazyness.

You can call it so. The underlying principle is that the game won't start to make money until it's done and bought. So some features are dumped - this is too expensive to do, this will take so long and the product won't be ready before Christmas, and so. And, of course, some things are tossed out by the window just because the executives think it's a waste of time and money to work at them. Sometimes they're even right. Some features can look good on the paper but when they are implemented, they go horribly wrong and don't add anything to the game. Yes, someone could flesh them out, but remember - until the game sells, the company will not see even a penny.

With games like Oblivion, it's propably not the matter of lack of imagination of the developer. I would know if I saw their vision, but I believe it was full of ideas which were given up later. Someone propably tried to guess what will bring more profit and failed miserably.

They didn't fail miserably.  They sold out in almost every possible way, even making horribly stupid mistakes in development, but they hyped it ridiculously.  It's sold literally millions, and had near perfect scores from all of the mainstream gaming media.  The game's popularity is based mostly on a self-perpetuating loop of hype.  Most reviews of the game listed almost no flaws whatsoever, and the developers themselves acted like their game was perfect... up until the point that they started trying to hype Fallout 3 as 'Oblivion 2: With Guns'.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

It's like there's a party where the magician says "for my FIRST trick", holds up his finger, blinks really fast, and lets out this horrendous fart that brings tears to everyone's eyes. Everyone can hold back and not complain because, after all, this is Uncle Larry and you wouldn't want to hurt his feelings.

But after his hideous laughing ceases, he holds up both fingers and says "and now, for my SECOND trick ..." you just have to curb-stomp the bastard and get back to eating party food.

I need a T-shirt that says "Curb-Stomp EA"

[Gantolandon]

They didn't fail miserably.  They sold out in almost every possible way, even making horribly stupid mistakes in development, but they hyped it ridiculously.

If your point is that they sold despite their changes, not because or with their aid, than yes, they failed miserably. If most of the players liked it, than well - it's just like pop music.

Most reviews of the game listed almost no flaws whatsoever

I no longer trust the reviews since Fallout Tactics...

[Aqizzar]

OK, read a little more into the Design Doc, and found this-

"BABES," AS IN, "TRUCKLOADS OF."

Tons of Total Babes: This game will have lots of babes that make the player go "wow."  There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes.  These babes will be present withou nipple-age and will all regrettably within the TSR Code of Ethics.

This brings a few questions to mind.  Above all, I always wondered if developers actually sat down and asked each other, "So, how many underdressed women will we shovel in and where?"  I mean, obviously the answer was always yes - I've been amazed by the pointlessness of cheesecake since I was old enough to recognize it.  But you've got to imagine the kind of shame or shamelessness floating in the air in a meeting like that.

Also, does anyone else find the specific mention of 'asain' slightly disturbing?  Especially since that of all things appeared to be cut.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Asia is only one continent in some obscure dead magic high tech prime material world that no one has ever been to.

I wonder if they meant Russian babes, Indian babes... or what?

[Drakale]

This brings a few questions to mind.  Above all, I always wondered if developers actually sat down and asked each other, "So, how many underdressed women will we shovel in and where?"

Of course they did, its half he fun. Those where the times, when most gamers where males, now I guess we have to cope with the backlash of final fantasy style "underdressed mens" 

It's a really good design document because they went wild with it, they went for the spirit of the game, what they wanted to fit in... And when you look at the final product you have to admit they did not stray much from it. Games like oblivion(in my opinion) lack that spirit and direction. The conversations are hollow, quests are boring, level progression meaningless... And it contains some of the most dreadful womans ever seen in a videogame. Unforgivable.

[Idiom]

Whoever designed Annah was single.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Whoever designed Annah was single.

Yes, now if only she could be made real...

[kcwong]

Whoever designed Annah was single.

And the text describing how she and the Nameless One flirt are just awesome...