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Author Topic: Much more bloodier battles  (Read 1858 times)

RebelZhouYuWu

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Much more bloodier battles
« on: August 03, 2008, 12:35:52 pm »

I am disapointed with the battles in world gen.  You will see hundreds of attackers going at each other only to retreat when they lost 3 units.  Making it so that the battle will go on until a substanal percentage of one side is killed will make battles seem buch more realistic and also make it so that 7 humans can't win against 457 elves just becuase they got the first 3 kills.
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Idiom

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 02:39:07 pm »

Based on % casualties then instead?
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Tormy

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 03:56:28 pm »

I am disapointed with the battles in world gen.  You will see hundreds of attackers going at each other only to retreat when they lost 3 units.  Making it so that the battle will go on until a substanal percentage of one side is killed will make battles seem buch more realistic and also make it so that 7 humans can't win against 457 elves just becuase they got the first 3 kills.

Well yeah these are quite weird in DF right now. I guess Toady has mentioned that wars are working like this: Example 100 elves vs. 8 dwarves. The game is calculating the battle with a "duel system". So 1 elf is attacking, 1 dwarf is defending or vice versa. Its not working like 100 elves are jumping on 8 dwarves. Dont ask my why, I find this quite weird also + its making no sense imo. Hopefully this will be changed, so instead of this "duel system" all battles will work as they should. All attackers vs. all defenders. Its just not right that a few humans can defeat hundreds of elves for example.
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Tamren

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 04:07:57 pm »

Well... keep in mind that realistic battles would have to take into account a ton of factors. Stuff like the arms and armour of either army and fortifications.
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Tormy

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 04:44:16 pm »

Well... keep in mind that realistic battles would have to take into account a ton of factors. Stuff like the arms and armour of either army and fortifications.

Indeed, and that is how it should work sometime in the future.  :)
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 04:46:29 pm »

As mentioned before, modding in a few tags like [liKES_FIGHTING] and whatnot seems to boost casualty rates in battles for all entities involved.

It's all speculation though.

Tormy

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 04:49:40 pm »

Sorry for going OT, but Kael, are you the same Kael who has made the FfH mod for Civ4?
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 04:54:44 pm »

No, I'm a different old school Kael(gotrice) on various sites that likes to burn things and wreck general havoc. I am working on a post-apocalypse mod for DF though.

The nickname got rather popular after Everquest used it I hear. :(

Tormy

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 05:14:55 pm »

Oh hehe, ok.  :)
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Granite26

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 11:04:46 am »

Well... keep in mind that realistic battles would have to take into account a ton of factors. Stuff like the arms and armour of either army and fortifications.

Duel system could be improved by modifiers, I.E. Generalship of the leaders, morale, and force ratios.

I.E. +1-25 defense per pt. of general, +1-25 something else per pt. of morale, and +1 damage per attack per person involved in the conflict, with the maximum being equal to the size of the other person.

Damage Modifier extra details:
A dragon, size 20, fighting an army of peon humans, size (8).  Each peon will get +20 damage from having his friends try to stab the dragon all at the same time.

Two human armies would both get +8...  This would increase the lethality of the duels and speed things up.

Arguments could be made that only the larger army should get the bonus, but I say that when large armies clash, it's bloody on both sides.  Maybe reduce the effect by the amount you are outnumbered?  If there's 100 on one side and 200 on the other, the 100 side takes a -1 penalty to their damage bonus?  If you really wanted to cripple it, you only get the +Y for every X times greater than the enemy you are. (so the 200 side would get a +Y damage for the first duel, at least).

Could also be a 'retreat' option from the duels.  After one party takes a yellow (or worse) wound, they try to flee the next round.  The winner gets a parting shot, and after that, that duel is over and the loser is marked as a casualty, and out for the rest of the fight.

You'd see a lot more war wounded that way.

The way to keep the Megabeasts alive through this process is have them retreat more often.  Also, their generalship skill should be crazy high.  Since they usual lead themselves, they will always be their own commander, and will quickly legendary in the skill.  This is balanced, because it gives the megabeasts a levelable skill that most of the stonecarving, soapmaking, pump operating, flattering, bookkeeping populace lacks.

Puzzlemaker

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 12:49:37 pm »

I agree completely.  World-Gen battles should be bloodier, and routed or retreating units should tend to scatter around more, ending up abandoning posts and the like.
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sweitx

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 01:46:06 pm »

I think there could be a small extension to the duel system in handling regional war, drawing on what real-life combat looks like (to some extent).
Maintain the current duel system, 1 v 1 in the beginning.  After pairing up for duels, each addition unit a side have can get a "free" hit, up to a certain number.  That number can be determined by the tactical/strategic ability of each side, the local terrain, and whether defending.

For example, 4 human v 100 elves.
Dueling Count: 4 human v 4 elves.
The remaining 96 elves has a chance to score a "free" hit.
On an open plain, with no tactical advantage, let's say 50%, so elves gets 48 "free" hits (or against a reduced defense rating).
If human are defending, the terrain will apply in their favor (mountains, hills, rivers), and the number of elves getting free hits will be much smaller.

In open field battle, the terrain will simply amplify the tactical advantages, maybe even have tactical advantages separated by the type of terrain (example, elves will have a tactical rating in forest, human on plain, dwarves and goblin in mountains).
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Tamren

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 02:22:42 pm »

Yeah. Right the system is sort of a mix between coin tossing and rock-paper-scissors.

Making it more detailed would take a lot of effort. But a good start would be to calculate things by group with different score modifiers. And change the rules of the rock-paper-scissors calculations to "best out of five" rules.
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Granite26

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 02:28:29 pm »

The only downside I see to your system is that it potentially involves hundreds of units getting free hits on a small number of foes.  Your example has 50 elves beating on 4 humans all at the same time.

At a certain point, being outnumbered stops being 'fighting so many at once' and becomes 'always facing fresh troops'

It's the old 'How many peasants CAN a dragon take on at once problem.'

Align

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Re: Much more bloodier battles
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 04:22:43 pm »

If you let the victims block and counterstrike (with sufficient skill that is) for instant decapitation, free hits sound like a great idea to me.
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