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[Andeerz]

According to this article the minimum amount of land to support a person (given ideal land conditions, vegan diet, etc.) is about 0.07 hectares (0.173 acres).  If we use that as an estimate and the estimate that one DF 4x4 fortress region is about an acre, then it would take at least 35 complete z-levels of farms to support a fort of 200 dwarves.  It's feasable, I guess...

[Shades]

According to this article the minimum amount of land to support a person (given ideal land conditions, vegan diet, etc.) is about 0.07 hectares (0.173 acres).  If we use that as an estimate and the estimate that one DF 4x4 fortress region is about an acre, then it would take at least 35 complete z-levels of farms to support a fort of 200 dwarves.  It's feasable, I guess...

No no one tile is an acre, so we only need 35 tiles. 6x6 farm is therefore (just) enough.

[Silverionmox]

Sooo... the beds, cabinets etc. in my fortress are an acre in surface each? Amazing.

An ancient Egyptian farmer could support twenty people, including himself - even taking into account that 50% of the grain was wasted, eaten by vermin or saved for seed. That's in the best possible circumstances, mind you.

[Shades]

Sooo... the beds, cabinets etc. in my fortress are an acre in surface each? Amazing.

In the same way that a dragon is the same size as a kitten yes

[Andeerz]

Ok, so if one tile is approximately 2m by 2m, then there are about 1012 tiles in an acre.  That means that with the estimates of my previous post, a 200 dwarf fort would require at the very very least about 34,998 tiles of farm land.  How many tiles are in a single fortress region tile?

[Shades]

Ok, so if one tile is approximately 2m by 2m,

One tile is not 2m by 2m, which makes the rest of the math pointless.

[46852]

Has anyone looked into the new 0.31 plant.txt raw file? There does seem to be new tags for seeds and drinks, and I think they can be made uncookable?
Also noticed and [UNDERGROUND_DEPTH:1:3] tag there, what's that? And a tag that existed in earlier versions too: [FREQUENCY:100]. What does that do?

[Andeerz]

Ok, so if one tile is approximately 2m by 2m,

One tile is not 2m by 2m, which makes the rest of the math pointless.

Just humor me. 

[Shades]

One tile is not 2m by 2m, which makes the rest of the math pointless.

Just humor me. 

But your trying to work out a realistic figure for area of farmland in a game where a single tile size is a big or as small as we like. You can just as easily work out it's 1 tile required as ~35k or even ~140k (with 1m squares).

[ManaUser]

However, I think the only way to do realistic farming is to have the ability to control lands above and below ground outside the immediate vicinity in addition to making the land and labor requirements of farming realistic.  This would necessitate people to change play-style to accommodate this new dimension of realism (which I think would be fun!), and would certainly require the option to somehow relegate the micromanagement to an automated system (THIS IS KEY!  Without it, the game becomes a job!).  With this, farmland and surrounding lands would have to be protected giving another purpose for the military, and making it more difficult to just turtle up inside a mountain (as it should be ).  Not only are these introduced challenges realistic, they would also be fun (to me, at least).

Yes, that seems like a nice solution. It would alleviate both the tedium and FPS related problems and would open up some interesting new possibilities at the same time. IIRC Toady has made comments about taking the game in that direction eventually, not about farming specifically, but controlling a larger area, and that sort of phantom populations who aren't simulated in full detail, etc.

[Soralin]

Ok, so if one tile is approximately 2m by 2m, then there are about 1012 tiles in an acre.  That means that with the estimates of my previous post, a 200 dwarf fort would require at the very very least about 34,998 tiles of farm land.  How many tiles are in a single fortress region tile?

That is probably a bit too large, unless you couple it with getting food from outside your fortress area or something, so that being able to produce all of your own food is exceptional, rather than expected.  But even with that, it's doable.  A region is 48x48 I think, so 2304 tiles/region tile/layer.  So you could fit even that into 15 layers of a single region tile, 48x48x15.  Or you could even have it completely on the surface, covering most of the surface of a 4x4 area would be enough to do it. It's big, but you can probably find megaprojects bigger than that.

It would be a bit of an effort, but not something that would be a huge problem to a force of 200 dwarves.  Miners with a big of skill already practically swim through rock, although I'd be in favor of slowing that down dramatically as well.  The main effort for that would be moving rocks off of the fields, and harvesting plants.  If there were some improvements to moving things around, heck even just dwarves that could pick up multiple rocks at a time, or multiple plants when harvesting, it would cut down a lot of time needed.  And adjusting the rate as which time flows a bit, for things other than movement, might be helpful, so that you're not spending a week dragging just one object from one place to another.  And it's not like you'd be building this all at once, it's something you would expand over the life of your fortress.

I suppose this is another realism vs fun discussion.

I prefer to think of it as a Fun vs fun discussion.   I don't care if it's realistic or not, I just want survival to be challenging and interesting, not something that I can just take for granted.

[Andeerz]

COOL!  Thanks Soralin!  Hmmm... so perhaps a tile should be 5 feet by 5 feet for the purposes of farming?  I think that would be swell.  That would make it around 1743 tiles per acre which would change the amount of tiles of farm land needed for 200 dwarves to 60306.  That would be around 26 complete z-levels of farmland.  Not too shabby, either!  :3

And to aid with soil preparation and stuff, animals and plows could be used, too!  Wheee!  Of course, that would require a lot of other planned development stuff to actually find its way into the game. 

[Zombie]

Are you insane?

Just go play Harvest Moon if you want THAT much farming. There is no dwarvenly reason to have 35 thousand tiles of farm. Also, 200 dwarves would be able to work that well... But they wouldn't be able to do much else!

This is a completely unrealistic idea in the confines of the Dwarf Fortress world. While I am all for realism as I think kitchens and feasthalls need to be worked on and I want to have a chef that cooks meals to order from ingredients dwarves pick... I think 35 thousand tiles of farm passed excessive quite a way ago.

As people keep informing you, a "tile" is simply a simplistic unit of measurement Toady can use to not have to render a Dragon over 15 tiles because this Dragon is 30m long and each tile is 2m by 2m. For one second, think of what you are actually suggesting... That stubborn dwarves who tend to vomit at hints of sunlight and often totter off to be on a mysterious break that you never said they could have, that frequently path their ways into harms way like some kind of suicidal toddler... That these dwarves could manage 35 thousand tiles of farms. Can you imagine making that many farms?! I can't even fathom how you can so casually talk about covering entire z-levels with farm and think that this, in any way, will not negatively impact any other working of your fortress.

I'm sorry if I seem a little aggressive or bitchy, but honestly... honestly... What are you even thinking?! When you can even clarify the scope of something that is supposed to be an integral part of fortress management by saying "it's not even as big as most megaprojects", then something has broken down here. Let me just say this again, so maybe you'll realize how crazy it sounds... Thirty... five... thousand tiles. That is 350 10x10 farms. How many of you can even get your fortress full of dwarves to work on a project at once? I know I can't. If 350 10x10 farms is considered "adequate" to feed 200 dwarves, then I don't think I'd ever want to play to where I need that much land for farming.

Do I think yields could be adjusted to where we will actually need at least 10 farmers at some point in time? Yes. Do I think that requires 35 thousand tiles of farm? No. That is a ridiculous number.

Here's some data:
1 acre = 4046.86 square meters
That equates to a roughly 63.61m x 63.61m square.

Rigidly defining tiles by any unit of measurement other than "tiles" results in these silly discussions. Personally, I don't think Toady really considers each tile an acre. I think each tile is equivalent to one tile. While farms are too easy there is no need to redefine how big a tile is as, if you are being that realistic for farms, you then need to redefine how large everything else is. Sure, a chest or coffer or cabinet can fit in a 2x2m square. A dwarf too. A dragon with a wingspan of 12m and a length from tip to tail of 32m? Six tiles wide by sixteen tiles long. A bronze colossus would be humongous. We would also need to redefine z levels, as you can surmise that each tile exists in three dimensions. If they are squares, that makes them 2x2x2m, which means that taller elves would probably occupy two z levels. A dragon might occupy two to three z levels... Not to mention that you would now need to dig at least two z levels down to prevent you from digging out the floor from under you.

Dwarf fortress is a good simulation, but it doesn't need to be perfect. Think of the Sims. They never define how big a tile is or how tall one z level is. It's just "big enough". This is the same idea with Dwarf fortress. The tiles are big enough for whatever needs to be in them. Instead of coming up with insane uber realistic ideas that involve 35 thousand tile farms, try coming up with more sensible ideas... Like cutting farm yield down by 25%. This could achieve the same goal without the need to make 35 thousand tile farms feasible mechanics, pathing, and CPU wise.

[Andeerz]

Are you insane?

...words...

That is a ridiculous number.

Sometimes, and I agree.  As for the tile unit thing: I know that there are no official measurements.  I hope one day there will be.  5x5ft and 2x2m are just what I think they ought to be and I base my suggestions under the assumption that those would be the approximate possible areas of tiles.  If you don't like it, that's cool!  I just wanted to make a lowball estimate of required land if things are actually going to be realistic with farming.  Anyway.  Yes, 35000 = ridiculous.  60306 is even more ridiculous.  But they are only ridiculous in the context of the current version of DF.

As I said before, the only way realistic farming with realistic land and labor requirements could ever be implemented is to have the ability to delegate the task of farming and have it automated in addition to other necessary things, like improved hauling, animal labor, control of outside lands, the military arc, and possibly the caravan arc.  The last five things are stuff Toady is going to do anyway, so I think realistic farming can be done.

As for the farming automation system, here's a loose idea of what it could be like:

1. Designate dorfs to live outside of the immediate fortress area in an area that you control (what determines control is up to how Toady decides to do the land control thingy).
2. Set the dorfs to work the land for agriculture or animal husbandry or both.
3. Farm plots would automatically be designated at this time utilizing some sort of procedurally generated farm layout algorithm thing akin to how human settlements and stuff are set up during world gen.
4. The player could have the option of micromanaging it at any time while allowing the fort to run in the background.


Here is how I envision a game with my above suggestions:

I start my fort as normal except I might have food imported to my fort for the first few years until I get a military force ready to guard lands outside and/or underground of the immediate fort area.  If I feel like it, I send some doods to scout the land out and make sure no baddies are there before sending some peasants (maybe 3 or so for a 48x48 tile area) with supplies and animals to work the land.  I allow the dorfs to automatically do their thing.  I just make sure to protect them from sieges or ambushes, maybe sending some soldiers on patrol over there.  I could at some point choose to switch to farm micromanage mode (or something) and send some masons over there to build a small fortification for those patrols.  I'd then switch back to my fort and continue playing and having Fun.  Occasionally I'd send out supplies to the farmers if needed.  Things like fertilizer, animals, tools and stuff might be requested every once in a while.

If I didn't want the headache of farming, I'd just import food through trade treaties or something and not worry about it.

The fort building would remain pretty much the same.  No need to change Dwarf Fortress to Dwarf Farm.  Is that a little more sane sounding?

Like cutting farm yield down by 25%. This could achieve the same goal.

If the goal is realistic farming, then no.  My goal is realistic farming.  If realistic farming is never implemented, I'd be fine with it being the way it is now forever.  But I'd find it hard to justify (to me) such ridiculously unrealistic farming if other parts of the game are going to try to be realistic, such as the caravan arc, military arc, and kingdom/land control/whatever.  That's just what I think.  From what I gather from the planned developments of the game, I feel that Toady wants to make it so that conflicts and other events during world gen and in-game have more substantial causes and purposes (Procedurally generated wars! Think of that!).  Control of resources IRL was the cause of many wars and is a big part of what war is about.  Land is a resource.  Land is used for farming among other economic activities, though farming and animal husbandry are probably the most land intensive.  I would find the game more compelling and pleasing if such factors were taken into account, and implementing realistic farming would be in my opinion a step in the right direction if it is to be a fantasy world generator and simulator.     

[Zombie]

Are you insane?

...words...

That is a ridiculous number.

Sometimes, and I agree.  As for the tile unit thing: I know that there are no official measurements.  I hope one day there will be.  5x5ft and 2x2m are just what I think they ought to be and I base my suggestions under the assumption that those would be the approximate possible areas of tiles.  If you don't like it, that's cool!  I just wanted to make a lowball estimate of required land if things are actually going to be realistic with farming.  Anyway.  Yes, 35000 = ridiculous.  60306 is even more ridiculous.  But they are only ridiculous in the context of the current version of DF.

The current context of DF is that a tile is however large it needs to be. A farm doesn't need 35000 tiles to be balanced in the current version of DF. You said it would need to be this large if each tile was 2m by 2m, which they are not.

I don't think DF needs stringent measurement for each tile. There is a point where the detail simply becomes too much. A stringent size to each tile may make logical sense for the real world, but for DF it makes little sense. While multi-tile creatures are a cool and terrifying (read: exciting) idea, a 6 by 16 tile dragon is absurd. Nethack and Rogue have survived for as long as they have and are still kicking without having stringent measurements for tiles. Keep in mind that if we defined a tile as a stringent unit of measurement, we would then need to redesign much of how the engine currently works. Caverns would need actual height to seem more cavernous, instead of the 3 z-level sheets per cavern we have now. We would need to redefine how mining works to a point to where it would be simply busywork for Toady.

In short, if it ain't broke then don't fix it. Farming is unbalanced, yes, but FAR from broken. We simply need to arrive at an agreeable yield for each planted tile that doesn't make it so a six by five farm can feed you fine until you hit 100 dwarves as long as you alternate between quarry bushes and some booze crop. Personally, I think the problem is 100% fixable via tweaking plant yield and dwarven consumption alone. Toady's added in a basic weight system for partial usage of threads, cloths and metals... It's a simple matter to adapt this to plants, resulting in a kg (or similar dwarven unit) measurement yield per farm tile and similar measurement consumption of food per dwarf per eating cycle. This way we can have a bit more of a Dwarven-style farm size as opposed to thrusting puny human units on the little alcoholics. I mean, they have Urists for heat... Why not Urists for weight, length, and anything else? Here, a tile is now 1u by 1u. Now make that balanced. Don't redesign the entire way the game (and, by proxy, roguelikes, nethack, and any ascii-based game) works to "make it fit" to some standard that doesn't even exist in the game. I mean, for all we know Dwarves don't even measure their height or weight or how far away something is. They just say, "I'm taller, fatter, and that's too damn far. You go get it!"