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Author Topic: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?  (Read 2147 times)

Aqizzar

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2008, 04:20:00 pm »

OK, so that whole net neutrality boojum.  I'm hardly an expert on the subject but here I go...

The idea of telecom companies paying the FCC to give them full control over surfing ability and hosting is not new, not by a long shot.  In 1992, some forward thinking AT&T execs saw the internet of 1999 combing down the barrel at them, and lobbied Congress to shut down the old ARPANET backbone servers, and move control of the network to them.  They won.

Thing is, the FTP system was specifically designed to survive and rebuild itself in the event of a nuclear war knocking out old, 60's style communication hubs.  When the original hard-coded military hosts were turned off, the Internet died.  And, just as intended, it rerouted it's entire network through commercial, public, and the few private servers extent in four hours.  You'll note that it took another five years or so for consumer hosting and home internet to really take off, because AT&T realized they had no more control over user access that they did before.  Obviously it would play out a little differently now, but with the web now distributed across the entire globe, with wireless broadband and massive hosting companies, even if the US dissapeared from the globe, everything outside it would maybe hiccup.

Which brings up the massive legal hurdles to what Neutrality soothsayers prophecize.  What ability do US service providers have to limit users access to non-US servers?  I don't know; no one does.  It would take years of litigation, lobbying, and trial for any kind of procedure to establish.

During which time, the legion of anonymous hackers who harp on about this bollocks would have already made every possible work-around you could need.  There are already plenty of ways to mask your IP, your hosted location, your protocols, and every other aspect of internet presence an ISP would need to theoretically set up net toll-booths.  And if this doomsaying turn out to be true, in the time it took for anything about the business side of the internet to change, those work-around options will increase exponentially.

So in short, I know it's fun to run around saying "its us cool internet users against the man, the world, and anyone else who wants extra money for wikipedia and pron".  We're a club and we're suckers for righteous solidarity as much as anyone.  But in the extremely unlikely event any Net-neutrality predictions come true, it'll still be completely meaningless to anyone outside the US, and to anyone inside it with more than the most requisite net-savvy.


Oh, and for that Mayan bit, yeah it's December 23, 2012.  Unless it turns out like this, I'll elicit, at most, a yawn.

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Slappy Moose

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2008, 05:14:00 pm »

If that shit ever does happen, I'm starting riots.
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MuonDecay

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2008, 05:45:00 pm »

Aqizzar, there is some precedent for prioritizing traffic though, which is one of the big problems here.

ISP's already can and do filter websites, or throttle customer's connections... the throttling is either wholesale throttling where above a certain monthly bandwidth use they choke your connection, or targeted, where certain kinds of communications, such as traffic resembling p2p or traffic on certain ports, is choked.

Yes, the internet itself cannot be controlled by any of the companies providing access to it, but their customers' access to it can, and that's all they need.

They can't blot out a part of the internet because yes, it will reroute itself around them. The packets that pass through their hardware, however, are completely at their mercy within the confines of the law... and part of the issue is that the law here isn't fully developed and clear about what they get to do with those packets... and part of what they want to do, likely as a new income scheme, is to charge people to give their packets "priority" in reaching their end-users.

The problem with that "priority" system, however, is that increasing the priority of those packets is essentially a misnomer for lowering the priority of everyone else's. The fear there is that people not able or not willing to pay off ISP's would have access to their own information slowed and limited... which unfairly skews the nature of the internet in favor of large business entities and subsequently against the favor of individual users and smaller entities without such financial resources.

The gist of what keeps me in the "this is so bloody bad, don't let it happen!" camp is that a customer of an ISP is paying for full access to the internet, the entire set of things contained therein. They are not paying for full access to a sub-set, Rich Internet, and poor access to the sub-set Poor Internet.

Beyond that, if a telecom was allowed to decide the kinds of info sent over their wires, or the way that data was used, or whether it got delivered properly, the origins of the home internet connection would have been muddled in the first place because when dial-up modems started coming around the phone companies would have thought "hey we can charge them to have a phone line connection and charge them separately when they're calling with their modem!", which is bollox because what you're paying for is sending data over their wires on a given protocol, regardless of what that data is or who it's going to (with the exception of the distance it travels to get there, which is somewhat of a reasonable provision in terms of telephone calls, moreso back then than now though).

From memory, here's an example of why this is bad for people and bad for the market:

I don't recall where this happened or the company found to be doing it, but there was an instance in the news where a large primary ISP was providing bandwidth to other small, localized ISP's with big-scale commercial pipelines (I hate calling them that, "series of tubes", *shudder*). This was obviously what you would call "wholesale" bandwidth... the small ISP's were getting a lot of bandwidth pretty cheap.

Through a bit of smart business, they were passing on this savings to customers, and buying internet through the small ISP's gave the customers a cheaper rate than buying home internet connections through the larger ISP.

This worried big ISP, so they started throttling the bandwidth of the smaller ISP's in a textbook example of anti-competitive practices.

If net neutrality is not properly preserved in law, this kind of thing might be legally allowed to become common practice, and since many big ISP's will likely hop onto this bandwagon if it's clearly legal to do it, an oligopoly scenario unfolds where the customer is left without much choice to vote against it in the free market either.

The best defense for the interests of the customer and other non-corporate, non-wealthy interests who need internet access, is to be proactive and tell the ISP's that bandwidth is bandwidth and the law doesn't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys that they don't like treating all packets equally.

[ June 06, 2008: Message edited by: MuonDecay ]

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SmileyMan

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 06:16:00 pm »

LOL - don't forget it's Bilderberger this weekend too. Conspiracy theorists of the world unite!

The main problem with the Net Neutrality argument is that there's nothing to stop people setting up a second Internet.  There's nothing particularly special about the one we've got, other than its size.  If it became too expensive to use, people would use something else.

In fact, this would be a really good excuse to roll out IP6 at last.

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uuuluuu

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 06:28:00 pm »

the fact that it's for no good reason said to be happening in 2012 should set off everyone's bullshitometers. I swear most of the conspiracy nuts don't even remember where that got that date from anymore (an arbitrary end of era date from the ancient Mayan calender) they just stick it on whatever their current favourite theory is as a matter of course. I'm so going to laugh when *nothing at all happens* in 2012.
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Kagus

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2008, 06:31:00 pm »

Hey, let's not forget how badly the world ended in 2000.  I mean, that was a pretty major apocalypse right there, it's amazing that some people survived.

subject name here

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2008, 06:32:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by SmileyMan:
<STRONG>LOL - don't forget it's Bilderberger this weekend too. Conspiracy theorists of the world unite!

The main problem with the Net Neutrality argument is that there's nothing to stop people setting up a second Internet.  There's nothing particularly special about the one we've got, other than its size.  If it became too expensive to use, people would use something else.

In fact, this would be a really good excuse to roll out IP6 at last.</STRONG>


If you can set up your own phone lines across the entire world then go for it.

awdball

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2008, 06:45:00 pm »

You know, the "world ends in 2012 according to the mayan calendar" is mostly an urban legend. The world doesn't end in 2012 for the mayans any more than it will for us in 9999 or than it did for us in 1999.

Mesoamerican Long Count calendar simply has to add another digit for dates after Dec 21 2012.

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MuonDecay

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2008, 07:08:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by subject name here:
<STRONG>

If you can set up your own phone lines across the entire world then go for it.</STRONG>


Precisely.

You'd need more capital than it took to lay the entirety of the first network, and you'd be starting at a disadvantage with no market share and no reputation against an established industry with the clout, both political and financial, to crush you as though they didn't even know you were there when they stepped on you.

I suppose it's not impossible, but it's a super-high-risk, low-gain venture... which basically means it's batshit crazy to attempt.

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Sylverone

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2008, 04:22:00 am »

Well, they already ARE taking away our local radio-frequency and cable television service, to replace it with digital satellite TV. Just think, in a few months, the ability of an average American (with some motivation) to hack into or broadcast his own message to the community is going to disappear. I'm really getting bugged by everything that's going on. It seems like a giant clawed hand is tightening around all of what used to be our freedoms. Right to bear arms is being opposed (which, by the way, exists specifically so that people like you and me could fight back in the event of government oppression), as well as our ability to tap into the cable lines and TV-range radio waves. Just watch, somehow even radio might go. I'm worried, particularly for those who don't see what could potentially happen.

Everyone keep your eyes and ears open, and be prepared to cling to as much freedom as you can, whatever should happen. End of the world or not, we're in for a rough ride.

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Gantolandon

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2008, 05:04:00 am »

Sorry to interrupt you, but they were talking about conspiration of ISPs from the entire world. Now that's something I would like to see to happen. Every ISP that breaks the trust automatically will gain a large part of customers of these companies who don't. Every political party that bans something like this won't have to worry about being elected for at least 8 years. And don't forget about companies who would bankrupt if somebody changed the Internet like this. Not only small companies. Think about Google for example.

And those people didn't even show any proof. Only think they did was talking about something that's going to happen according to them. They could have warning us from mutant psionic squirrels from Beta Centauri and this would be as much credible. How will they prove it? How did they know about this conspiration at least? It's the first thing they should say if they want to be taken seriously. Without this it's just a spooky ghost story.

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Kalimar

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2008, 05:15:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Sylverone:
<STRONG>Well, they already ARE taking away our local radio-frequency and cable television service, to replace it with digital satellite TV. Just think, in a few months, the ability of an average American (with some motivation) to hack into or broadcast his own message to the community is going to disappear. I'm really getting bugged by everything that's going on. It seems like a giant clawed hand is tightening around all of what used to be our freedoms. Right to bear arms is being opposed (which, by the way, exists specifically so that people like you and me could fight back in the event of government oppression), as well as our ability to tap into the cable lines and TV-range radio waves. Just watch, somehow even radio might go. I'm worried, particularly for those who don't see what could potentially happen.

Everyone keep your eyes and ears open, and be prepared to cling to as much freedom as you can, whatever should happen. End of the world or not, we're in for a rough ride.</STRONG>


Yeah, you're right. As a quasi-scholar of constitutional law, I'm seeing precedents written that effectively dissolve the 1st, 4th, 5th and 14th Amendments all the time. For an officer to search your car, not because there is probable cause that's demonstrative, but rather a "feeling" or premonition under "good faith" has effectively removed the right of the 4th to citizens. No longer can "probable cause" be required, all the officer needs is just "feeling." If you think that their swearing in, to protect the constitution of the United States is their imperative, you're mistaken, as not all of them have that virtuous intention above their own understanding of law and order.

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SmileyMan

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2008, 06:47:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by subject name here:
<STRONG>

If you can set up your own phone lines across the entire world then go for it.</STRONG>


Me personally, no.  But I'm quite happy to set up a couple of cables to a few of my neighbours.  And if they do the same, well, pretty soon we'll have a MAN.  It'll be in the interest of local governments to set up communications with other close towns.  Likewise for national governments.

In fact, with WiFi, we don't even need the wires.

And as a plus side, we can start rebuilding all those crumbling communities again.

Capitalism has many faults, but contrary to the opinion of everyone's favourite tautologies, the organised anarchists, it acts as a poweful brake to cartels and conspiracies, because of the commercial advantage that is always to be had by breaking the cartel.

The weak point in the armour has always monopolies, not conspiracies.

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Jreengus

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2008, 06:54:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Sylverone:
<STRONG>Well, they already ARE taking away our local radio-frequency and cable television service, to replace it with digital satellite TV. Just think, in a few months, the ability of an average American (with some motivation) to hack into or broadcast his own message to the community is going to disappear. I'm really getting bugged by everything that's going on. It seems like a giant clawed hand is tightening around all of what used to be our freedoms. Right to bear arms is being opposed (which, by the way, exists specifically so that people like you and me could fight back in the event of government oppression), as well as our ability to tap into the cable lines and TV-range radio waves. Just watch, somehow even radio might go. I'm worried, particularly for those who don't see what could potentially happen.

Everyone keep your eyes and ears open, and be prepared to cling to as much freedom as you can, whatever should happen. End of the world or not, we're in for a rough ride.</STRONG>


Oh my god! Americans wont be able to have guns in order to oppose an opresive goverment! Because a gun would really help you against the goverment, you can go to congress and shoot army/police/congressmen till the cows come home and have no effect the right to bear arms is a stupid one, if the goverment becomes too opresive all you need to do is stop paying taxes, if everyone started getting cash in hand and didnt pay their taxes the goverment would collapse ridiculously quickly.

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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: The apocalypse. What will become of DF?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2008, 06:54:00 am »

Isn't the conspiracy trying to form a monopoly?   :confused:

I must say though, if they take away http://icanhascheezburger.com/  THERE WILL BE BLOOD!

[ June 07, 2008: Message edited by: Ioric Kittencuddler ]

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