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[Jay]

I'll tell you what a paragraph is buddy. Wikipedia < dictionary < culture.

You're telling me that because everybody else on the internet does it, it's okay?
Because everybody else uses improper English, that's okay?
Because lots of other people crash their cars into trees, it's perfectly fine for you to?
Because people smash their computers with baseball bats, it's fine for you to do so?
Wikipedia < Culture < Dictionary

[codezero]

It's not a proper paragraph, no, but being a grammar nazi isn't helping anybody.

[Jay]

It's not a proper paragraph, no, but being a grammar nazi isn't helping anybody.

Correct.  I simply responded to you making a statement about what I said.
Now can we PLEASE get back on topic?
Obviously Toady is going to be adding new ways for you to die.
Namely the ability for goblins to climb your constructed walls and jump over your empty moats.

[Torak]

I know that you're just a troll now. Thanks for wasting your own time.

[Joseph Miles]

It's not a proper paragraph, no, but being a grammar nazi isn't helping anybody.

Nor is comparing DF to a game it was NOT intended to be like and saying it's too easy to win when there are no win objectives. This is hardly a suggestion, if anything it's just a complaint.

Also, claiming that because everybody on the internet does something it's proper is laughable. Ever hear of 1337 5p34|{? That's not proper English, nor is "u cul wid dat?" and "I c u." Hence, that argument falls apart right there.

[codezero]

You just scared the (3rd word in subject title) out of me then, I thought you somehow knew how I just got sieged. (They climbed an unseen ramp over my fortifications).

Anyway, I always leave a path to my inner fortress with the seiging the way it is. Keeps the challenge in for now.

But by this post I'm just trying to remind people/toady of the great slogan. I'd love to be battling to survive from the very start, militarily, trade-wise, and happiness-wise, off the top of my head.

[codezero]

({!} Warning, this article or section may contain original research.)

Btw joseph miles, I learnt to use the term paragraph growing up, not on the internet. If I wanted to be "proper" about everything I'd be writing wikepedia articles.

[Duke 2.0]

 On topic:

 Indeed, we all feel the addition of some features and bugfixes have caused the game to be easier. All those awesomesauce stories of DF? Made in older, less stable versions. Thus if you want such a challenge, you need to use said version.

 However, there are plenty of things you can do now that are challenging. Haunted settings, a bottomless pit, nano fortress, fortress in the mountians with Embark Anywhere, embarking in the city of an enemy civ, Creating a hellworld with temperatures set to just a few degrees away from combustion.

 I think Toady will be adding some features that not only will expand the game, but add a hell lot more towards what can go wrong.

 As for this interesting off-topic discussion:

 To me, a paragraph is what I say it is. To you, a paragraphis what you say it is. If there is only a small difference between them, whats the heck is cause for such a battle?

 Serious business indeed.

[codezero]

Heh. Nice perspective.

[Joseph Miles]

And something we should all remember: Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still fucked up in the head.

And now, off to make that Morrowind walkthrough.

[Exponent]

Note that the "Losing is fun" slogan, from what I remember reading somewhere (maybe the Gamasutra article?), was not a major theme that Toady was trying to keep in mind while working on DF, but was rather a minor phrase in the manual that caught on among players.  So that phrase might not be truly representative of what Toady has in mind regarding the difficulty and overall nature of DF.

edit:  Gamasutra article, page 6

How about the "Losing is fun!" motto in the instructions and on the site? Where did that originate?

TA: Ha ha, that was originally just a throw-away line in the manual. But some people like it.

I think it's really an important thing to say, when I think about it.

TA: I put it there to try to create some comfort with the concept of permadeath. Reloading every time you fail will really hamstring you in DF, especially later on. I've also tried to put out a concept of "playing the world, not the fortress." Though in a sense it's a bit premature, since the best parts of the persistent universe are still in the works.

...

To return to "Losing is fun!" for a moment, the suggestion helps the player to get over losing, so he'll leave behind exploration sites for Adventure mode. I'd say one of the game's breakthrough ideas is how the fortress gameplay naturally encourages the player to create areas that are challenging to overcome in an Adventure Mode game. An excellent strategy in one game becomes a dire challenge in the other.

TA: Yeah, that was the original premise of the smaller game, and it was one of the things I thought would be very interesting from a metagaming perspective. On the Bay 12 Games forums, they've gotten together and are now making an "Adventure Park," where they each take a small portion of one world map square and make a for-adventure-mode fortress. Then they'll upload it, and anybody can play, wandering through the varied creations. It kind of reminds me of a MUSH. This kind of sharing and moving between game modes is definitely fertile ground.

So the idea is more about "playing the world, not the fortress", rather than about making the game difficult.

[Haven]

There are stats for thoughts on the wiki... But things were harder when there were no Plump Helmets, I'm told.

And the line occurs to me... '$@# CULTURE! I HAVE A DICTIONARY!' In the middle of a high society banquet.

[Zombie]

I would tend to agree. I like having a leisurely (almost dungeon keeper-esque) time building my fortress. Personally, I love the ability to turn off sieges and temperature and things like that.

In my eyes, a game is a tool. You use it to have fun. You can do any number of things in DF to impede yourself from the start. Try embarking with only seeds and no food or alcohol! Whew. Talk about a hard first few seasons. >.< I mean, you don't even have to embark with ANYTHING. It doesn't force you to bring ANYTHING with except for seven dwarves.

Dwarf Fortress is an excellent game because you can savescum all you want and not ruin your fun. You hamstring adventure mode, if you ever play adventure mode... But I think all of us have our unique play perspectives for DF. I like to play with sieges off because I like the idea that I can concentrate on architecture and making a visually stunning fortress...

Eventually I want to try running a pure generational fortress with no (or very few) migrants.

The point is that Toady is essentially handing us a template game. He makes the mechanics and whatnot, but the idea isn't that one style of play is better than another. The idea is that we're all brought together as a community that collectively plays this game... Yet none of us play it the exact same way. Eventually we'll likely be able to toggle more things on or off as well...

With that said, if you want a NetHack or Rogue-like game: play adventure mode. It's a bunch of fun (even though not quite my thing) and it's quite easy to die in it from what I understood.

Also: Stop fighting about the English language. It's mangled enough already.

[Toady One]

If people would remember to chill out it would be helpful for everybody.  codezero and Torak, that is.

[Zombie]

Yeah, Toady. Chill pills are great things.

I just like how some people complain about what DF is or isn't, and really it is completely up to them as to how easy they want to have it.