Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[isitanos]

Basically, If you want a game were things are easy to see and understand however are less rewarding in the long run, DF isn't your game. If the Interface is such a hot topic, were is the legion of people complaining about the graphics? Tilesets are just an attempt to cover over the basic graphics right?

 Because Everyone here loves the graphics - ASCII or loves the Tilesets. Or Finds the gameplay strong enough to overpower the weakness some see in it.

 The interface... I mean come on, if any of you here are longer term players you would not be complaining, as I see no current problem with it. I have easily memorized the macros, and I only use the large map as the start to figure out fortress location - otherwise the interface has done nothing but be simple and useful - effectively built to serve it's purpose.

I wouldn't call myself a "long-term player", especially compared to some people on this forum, but I started playing this game some months before the 3d version came out.

I don't think you're being really imaginative about what could be improved in this interface. I actually like ASCII or symbolic graphics in general, and I find most commands in DF pretty efficient once you've memorized them. However, there are always some irritating small things that Toady takes forever to fix because he's working on something more important, and because it's not his priority. For instance, here are some of the things driving me crazy right now:
- The small view window that's not made for square tiles, and forces you to have a larger screen than 1024x768 if you want to use 16x16 tiles.
- The game pausing every 2 min whenever you are mining, because you discovered mica for the 10 000th time.
- You can't zoom to the event an announcement informs you about
- You can't put a squad on or off-duty from the 'x' (squad) view.

I could make a much larger list, but that's not the point: with third-party interface development, this kind of little problem would be fixed in a matter of days, instead of months like now. Got it? And some cool and almost indispensable functionalities like those of Dwarf Foreman would be integrated with the interface, and so on. The kind of features that help enjoying more your game, and make it less of a chore.

Now I have already stated that I understand Toady's point of view: he's not interested by all these advantages if it ruins his enjoyment of his project. But stop implying that those wishing for 3rd party interfaces are either noobs or have lost their minds.

[Lathana]

Well, reading through all that was fun.

I'm trying to stay chilled. Honest. I'm just a player of DF, I'm not a coder or a programmer or a hard-core DF nut who's been playing since version 0.21.93.19c or whatever.

Just some guy.

When I started playing DF , getting used to the ASCII was hard. Then came the Z-level, and that was harder to adjust to.  Then I loaded up a few mods, some graphics and tilesets, and voila, this was much easier, easier to get into. Then I started playing with modbase and whoa, totally neat.

DComp and DForeman , later still. Neat tools.

Guess what? To me, all the third party crap in the world wasn't as cool as the first time I loaded up the new legends screen, or drew my own world,  or saw one of my abandoned forts form up as a new group.

All that came from Toady.

Part of me sees what the pro-"open source" camp is saying. They don't want to ruin the game, and they want to make it better. But what underlies that argument seems to be "it's going to happen anyway, stop doing it your way and open it up now". That no matter what, eventually third party mods are going to be popular enough that they may strip a lot of the userbase away.

On the other hand, part of me sees what the "wait for Toady" camp is saying. I don't *need* Dwarf Forreman or Dwarf Companion. I don't need the mods. Hell, I don't even need the tilesets , I can figure it out.

The fun comes from the game, that Toady made.

If anything, I think it's a bit depressing that Toady has thrown so much time and effort into this and everyone is bickering about what they want to see. Personally, I'm the sort of guy who sits back and waits to see where he takes things. The interface hasn't been a problem for me, so I'm probably biased.

The point is made that "third party people would fix lots of problems quickly". Granted. The point is made that "third party people would cause Toady a lot of problems". This is what people keep blithely skipping over.

What are you people pushing for third party interfaces going to do if you're wrong? If it gets to be such a hassle for Toady that he simply says "forget it" and throws in the towel?

[Momaw]

I was randomly pulled into this topic from IRC so I'll just rivet my 0.02$ to the end and call it good.

I fully support Toady's right to decide the future of his game in every aspect.  Those who would challenge his absolute authority need to remember that 1.) this is his baby  2.) this is his baby. In other words, we are all guests in his developmental house, and his word is law. He's in this for the fun of making it, to see a fantasy made real.  He's not in it to kiss ass with people he's never met and become world famous for starting the most popular designed-by-committee game engine.

Toady doesn't need to justify his decision, and we don't need to like it.  Those are the facts.  Those who would wail and rend their garments over his refusal to meet their demands need to reassess the value of their opinion as non-commercial consumers.  The correct viewpoint to approach Dwarf Fortress is:  "Hey Toady, that looks awesome! Do you mind if we play too?"

For those who think they can do it better, they are as ever free to do so;  starting from scratch.

[RavingManiac]

My 2 cents:

This thread should be locked before it gets out of control

[Spelguru]

I call your two cents and raise with another two cents:
Please, lock this thread. Or nuke it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Awww nuts, the nuke button is for spoilers :/

It can't really go uphill from here. It has fallen down a pit with flat walls.

[Tormy]

My 2 cents:

This thread should be locked before it gets out of control

Thats what Im saying since page 7. 

[Mithaldu]

There's actually one other very good reason why Toady shouldn't implement any APIs like this right now:

Doing so would lock them in and bring most experimentation to a grinding halt. Instead people have to be way more creative in what they do and have to get at the memory themselves and think up new ways how to handle it. The telnet experiment is a good example of this.

When things go on like this, Toady will have a broad range of 3rd party interfaces in a year or so and can then pick and choose which to support (in a way of HIS choosing and if he decides to) or even take ideas from them.

[Langdon]

He's essentially going to be "forced" to do so by his own conscience and desire to please his playerbase, even if he is fully within his rights to ignore them.

I didn't understand his thoughts behind this until I realized it already happened, albeit on a smaller scale. Quite a few people expressed shock that Regional Prospector didn't get updated for the latest DF version, and went back to playing the old one. A very bad thing for a game that runs on donations.

Indeed. And note that he coded in a built-in replacement for Regional Prospector into 39e... even if that wasn't in the planned dev notes. I.e. Toady read the protests on the forums, and took time out from bugfixing to add a new feature... even if he was planning to take time off for his other project(s).

[SirPenguin]

He's essentially going to be "forced" to do so by his own conscience and desire to please his playerbase, even if he is fully within his rights to ignore them.

I didn't understand his thoughts behind this until I realized it already happened, albeit on a smaller scale. Quite a few people expressed shock that Regional Prospector didn't get updated for the latest DF version, and went back to playing the old one. A very bad thing for a game that runs on donations.

Indeed. And note that he coded in a built-in replacement for Regional Prospector into 39e... even if that wasn't in the planned dev notes. I.e. Toady read the protests on the forums, and took time out from bugfixing to add a new feature... even if he was planning to take time off for his other project(s).

Exactly. Regional Prospector was a fantastic idea cooked up by the community. Toady realized this and made a built in one.

Community comes up with idea. It's popular. Toady sees this, implements it himself. Everyone wins, no one loses control of anything.

3rd parties can only add to a project.

[Langdon]

He's essentially going to be "forced" to do so by his own conscience and desire to please his playerbase, even if he is fully within his rights to ignore them.

I didn't understand his thoughts behind this until I realized it already happened, albeit on a smaller scale. Quite a few people expressed shock that Regional Prospector didn't get updated for the latest DF version, and went back to playing the old one. A very bad thing for a game that runs on donations.

Indeed. And note that he coded in a built-in replacement for Regional Prospector into 39e... even if that wasn't in the planned dev notes. I.e. Toady read the protests on the forums, and took time out from bugfixing to add a new feature... even if he was planning to take time off for his other project(s).

Exactly. Regional Prospector was a fantastic idea cooked up by the community. Toady realized this and made a built in one.

Community comes up with idea. It's popular. Toady sees this, implements it himself. Everyone wins, no one loses control of anything.

3rd parties can only add to a project.

You missed my point. The last bugfix release for July was supposed to be 39d, and he was to take the rest of the month off to work on his other projects (possibly, projects that will generate income). Due to the volume of complaints about Prospector not working, Toady felt he had to "fix" it, and put in extra work in order to produce his version of Regional Prospector in 39e. I don't pretend to know if Toady found this extra work onerous, but in my opinion, this is a clear case of Toady changing his plans in order to cater to a third-party addition that had become so popular, a significant segment of the playerbase felt the game was unplayable without it.

I am not against third party utilities, but I am against anything (be it utilities, APIs or interface specs) that generates additional work for Toady and delays the progression of core features like the army and caravan arcs.

[Andir]

He's essentially going to be "forced" to do so by his own conscience and desire to please his playerbase, even if he is fully within his rights to ignore them.

I didn't understand his thoughts behind this until I realized it already happened, albeit on a smaller scale. Quite a few people expressed shock that Regional Prospector didn't get updated for the latest DF version, and went back to playing the old one. A very bad thing for a game that runs on donations.

Indeed. And note that he coded in a built-in replacement for Regional Prospector into 39e... even if that wasn't in the planned dev notes. I.e. Toady read the protests on the forums, and took time out from bugfixing to add a new feature... even if he was planning to take time off for his other project(s).

Exactly. Regional Prospector was a fantastic idea cooked up by the community. Toady realized this and made a built in one.

Community comes up with idea. It's popular. Toady sees this, implements it himself. Everyone wins, no one loses control of anything.

3rd parties can only add to a project.

So, how is that any different than third party interfaces...  This is the problem I see here.  What are good third party tools and what are bad third party tools?  Just because Toady doesn't provide an easier way to get to the interface layer?  Making people use memory hacks to create tools doesn't inspire creative thought.  It increases the barrier to entry.

I mean, it's like my fantasy world of cake decorators.  The chef won't tell the cake decorators what shape, size or color the cake is.  They will only receive the box that the cake is in when the cake is shipped to the client.  Okay sure, the decorator could decorate the box, but it's not going to be as cool, or efficient as decorating the cake itself or practicing with a real cake until they get it just right.  When the customer gets the cake, they will see a pretty box and think it's really cool.  Then they open the box to see a cake that has no decoration.  Now, if the chef were to hand out cake shaped molds, the decorators could practice with all kinds of things to make the best looking and functional cake that is also fitting for the occasion.  Unfortunately, the decorators have to guess what the cake looks like, draw fake designs and fabricate something purely on speculation.

[Neonivek]

It increases the barrier to entry

Goodness I forgot how HUGE that was until I got my friend to try it and then learned I had to teach him how to do everything (and I mean everything) to the point where I just said "Alright nevermind stop playing it. Ill tell you about it again once it is more finished."

I personally don't know what to say on this subject other then to say that Toady pretty much has the right of way no matter what he decides. Though he should expect to end up being at least 50% disapointed since as we know, Disapointment comes and disapointment goes but internet disapointment is heatseeking!

[Andir]

It increases the barrier to entry

Goodness I forgot how HUGE that was until I got my friend to try it and then learned I had to teach him how to do everything (and I mean everything) to the point where I just said "Alright nevermind stop playing it. Ill tell you about it again once it is more finished."

I know how that is... I have three friends that I thought would love the game but didn't give it it's fair dues.  Maybe that's why I push so hard for some usability and interface features (that and I work with interfaces and training on a daily basis and it sickens me to see a good engine buried under this interface.)

[Davion]

I know how that is... I have three friends that I thought would love the game but didn't give it it's fair dues.  Maybe that's why I push so hard for some usability and interface features (that and I work with interfaces and training on a daily basis and it sickens me to see a good engine buried under this interface.)

So then continue to suggest interface improvements, because it doesn't sound like Toady is going to be opening up the interface to third-parties any time soon.

[SirPenguin]

You missed my point. The last bugfix release for July was supposed to be 39d, and he was to take the rest of the month off to work on his other projects (possibly, projects that will generate income). Due to the volume of complaints about Prospector not working, Toady felt he had to "fix" it, and put in extra work in order to produce his version of Regional Prospector in 39e.

Did Toady ever say that? I doubt it, considering the release notes. Toady's "regional prospector" was released in the 39d version. He only did a bugfix of it in 39e.

...and lastly, his side project began on the 24th, and the latest release was the 23rd, just as planned. He didn't have to put off anything at all.

All in all I don't think what you said makes any sense.