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[FlexibleDogma]

Devils advocate:  Isn't Dwarf Companion a full-out replacement for the units screen?  Yes you can cheat with it, but all I've ever done is use it to sort units and such.  (i.e. Was it Urist McDwarfy or Urist McUrist I was training in bonecrafting?)

Yep, but it has nothing to do with the source code, correct?
Besides I can totally understand Toady. If I would make a game, I wouldnt give out any source code either... until I plan to update the game at least.
Revamped interface will come, just wait for it. These people should post ideas that what interface would they like to see, instead of asking for the interface source code.

The whole bit about opening up the source code for a client sent the discussion to a bad place and the OP should have left it out.  Discussing just a 3rd party user interface is useful, discussing opening up the source (which the author has repeatedly said he WILL NOT DO) is not.  Since Toady has only said one time (that I know of) that he is leery of 3rd party GUIs the OP would have been much better off trying to convince him and members of the community of how it could be a good thing.*

*Note: I'm not saying I speak for the community, nor am I saying the majority is for or against the idea.  I'm just saying that there are a quite a few people around here would have to be convinced it's a good thing and that was the least clunky way I could think to say it.

Related: Jifodus's proof of concept is VERY interesting, and I'm wondering how hard it would be to map everything in the left "game" area to graphic tilesets while leaving the right "text" portions untouched.  If you wanted to go all out it could also catch all the key presses and send them over to DF, and if it noted that the screen was not a game screen it could just show everything in plain text.  A key combination not use by DF as well could tell the program "plain text only right now" as well to catch cases when the program can't figure out it is on a data screen.

Edit: If I type too fast I sometimes forget to finish my sentences.  Did that happen here?  I'll never tell .

[Frobozz]

The whole bit about opening up the source code for a client sent the discussion to a bad place and the OP should have left it out.  Discussing just a 3rd party user interface is useful, discussing opening up the source (which the author has repeatedly said he WILL NOT DO) is not.

Well as it stands now, from what I've read of Toady discussing it, the interface is currently tied somehow to the game logic. If he were to open up the client as it is now, he would have to, to some degree, open up a good chunk of the game logic.

In the future though an open client, perhaps with a reference-style license like the one Microsoft uses for .NET's source, would allow for us to make suggestions on how to change things. But we wouldn't be able to actually do much with the source since he'd keep the parts that make it useful closed (like the actual game logic).

[dreiche2]

Always comes back to money. Kind of frustrating, isn't it? Doubly so, considering Toady is a indie dev...even the giants, such as EA and the like, understand the important of modding.

Toady is a great guy making a great game. But I fear his concern for his pocketbook is going to alienate people from the game we love so much.

You're turning things upside down. If Toady cared about the money, he would work on the interface... What he says is that as long as he can survive on the current donations, he works on what he likes most instead, so it's exactly the other way around from what you describe.

Also, you're the first one in this thread to actually attack, if mildly, Toady, and that's not what this thread was about. This only provokes further flaming, and we have enough of that already.

See what you did there?

I had a feeling I was insulting someone earlier but I didn't remember it being you. Once a thread gets long like this I start forgetting what I've already posted. Kudos to finding an inconsistency.

Guys, really, you're both insulting each other. I would suggest that those people who actually want to politely discuss the issues at hand - and thankfully there is some actual discussion buried under here - that these people from now on ignore any insults, and that those people that don't want this discussion simply ignore this thread. I think everyone heard your opinion clearly by now.

[Frobozz]

Guys, really, you're both insulting each other. I would suggest that those people who actually want to politely discuss the issues at hand - and thankfully there is some actual discussion buried under here - that these people from now on ignore any insults, and that those people that don't want this discussion simply ignore this thread. I think everyone heard your opinion clearly by now.

I think at this point we should just start a new thread. Otherwise people new to the thread might ignore the thread early on not bothering to check if the insults stop or not.

[Sergius]

But he started it!!! No fair!

[dreiche2]

Starting a new thread for the same topic would only anger people again I suppose...

[SirPenguin]

You're turning things upside down. If Toady cared about the money, he would work on the interface... What he says is that as long as he can survive on the current donations, he works on what he likes most instead, so it's exactly the other way around from what you describe.

Also, you're the first one in this thread to actually attack, if mildly, Toady, and that's not what this thread was about. This only provokes further flaming, and we have enough of that already

I disagree. I'm not attacking Toady. I'd be willing to say the fact you THINK I'm attacking Toady is the very reason topics like this turn into flame wars. People are ALLOWED to simultaneously respect, like, AND be critical of someone's actions. That's all I'm doing. I am not flaming or attacking Toady, DF, or you, or anyone. I am saying, though, that I disagree with Toady's actions in this instance.

I mean, every interview has the "So you ever going to fix the interface?" question. It's on everyone's minds, and a topic is made about it at least once a week with various suggestions. It is, by far, the biggest thing holding people back from playing DF for more than 5 minutes. Even if Toady didn't want to, he has a legion of willing modders who would love to.

But he doesn't, and he himself states his reason is because of control and money. And that doesn't feel right. It goes against everything independent development and donationware stand for. He's not a bad person, he's not greedy, but I do feel he needs to change this if he's hoping to continue making a living off of it.

[Sergius]

Starting a new thread for the same topic would only anger people again I suppose...

It would be pointless, and honestly, unless you're a moderator with locking powers, you have no place telling people to stop posting in a thread and use a newer one anyway.

Also where do you get that I'm not discussing the issue at hand? Maybe you didn't bother reading my opening arguments, but that's hardly my fault.

And since we're pointing out inconsistencies, let me point out...

Frobozz: you said:

Also I obviously never stated he should implement the API during an alpha stage

Yet you were attacking a post that quite explicitly was against imlpementing an API during an alpha stage. I repeteadly state so very clearly all over my post. So which is? You are not arguing FOR an API during the alpha stage, yet you are arguing AGAINST not using an API during the alpha stage? And let's face it, this game is going to be an alpha pretty much forever. The day it becomes a beta is the day Toady got bored of adding new stuff to it.

I also don't see how being able to program APIs for a living would make me better at english. I don't even use english in the projects that I work for. That's a pretty bigoted assumption right there (and do you honestly think that writing a few messageboxes and menu options would make me a linguistics expert?)

That's all.

[Anu Necunoscut]

I disagree. I'm not attacking Toady. I'd be willing to say the fact you THINK I'm attacking Toady is the very reason topics like this turn into flame wars. People are ALLOWED to simultaneously respect, like, AND be critical of someone's actions. That's all I'm doing. I am not flaming or attacking Toady, DF, or you, or anyone. I am saying, though, that I disagree with Toady's actions in this instance.

I mean, every interview has the "So you ever going to fix the interface?" question. It's on everyone's minds, and a topic is made about it at least once a week with various suggestions. It is, by far, the biggest thing holding people back from playing DF for more than 5 minutes. Even if Toady didn't want to, he has a legion of willing modders who would love to.

But he doesn't, and he himself states his reason is because of control and money. And that doesn't feel right. It goes against everything independent development and donationware stand for. He's not a bad person, he's not greedy, but I do feel he needs to change this if he's hoping to continue making a living off of it.

That has to be the most tortuous misrepresentation I've read in a while.  Here we have an indie, one-man-band developer who gives away his game for free, making a humble statement that he'd rather not manage or otherwise wrangle modders who don't have the same years-long commitment to the project.  From this you conclude he's selfish?  That clearly his wishes are only explained as an unfeeling tyrant's lust for money?  That's an absolutely backwards conclusion--he's stated the minute he stops enjoying working on the game he'll leave it, and he -doesn't enjoy playing administrator-.  Might he mean just what he says?  Might your psychoanalysis be a truckload of bunk?

Also, would you cease with your unsubstantiated claims that "fix the interface!" is the #1 request?  What are you basing that on other than your own wishful thinking drawn from purely anecdotal evidence?  Your heart's in the right place, but I think your brain refuses to process any evidence or logic other than "allowing us access to create our interfaces is the one and only truth; all opposition must have evil motives."  Might it be that he wants to keep having fun, rather than having to be committed to maintaining a playground for modders at the expense of working on what he wants to?

Again, I believe your hearts are in the right place, but you all are sounding (in my opinion) more selfish and insulting by the minute.  At least admit the possibility that refusing to allow this access isn't necessarily the result of malevolent motivations?  I wouldn't ascribe such evil intent to your dreams for the game, so why do you heap them on Toady's?

[FlexibleDogma]

...
Again, I believe your hearts are in the right place, but you all are sounding (in my opinion) more selfish and insulting by the minute.
...

(Emphasis mine)

Do you really mean to address an entire group while rebutting the claims of one?  I think plenty of folks on the pro-3rd party interface have been quite civil.

[Nukeitall]

I maintain that moderation will become..needed..at some point.

[Omega2]

It already is necessary. ad hominem attacks are zipping around like bullets. We might end up locked soon.

Which is sad, I really like the civil part of this topic.

[Anu Necunoscut]

...
Again, I believe your hearts are in the right place, but you all are sounding (in my opinion) more selfish and insulting by the minute.
...

(Emphasis mine)

Do you really mean to address an entire group while rebutting the claims of one?  I think plenty of folks on the pro-3rd party interface have been quite civil.

I apologize.  That's very true.  We should all take care not to overgeneralize--but I get easily lost in this massive thread, and any internet argument eventually bogs down in petty nonsense and misinterpretations of each side.  To rephrase then, -some- of the "Let us mod now!" crowd is sounding that way to me.

[Sergius]

I maintain that moderation will become..needed..at some point.

Good moderation, yes. Which doesn't mean quelling every thread that isn't the perfect model of civility and cooperation and kissy unicorns and rainbows and happiness for everyone.

A (good) moderator's job is to:
-Stop people from spamming
-Stop people from trolling
-Stop people from derailing threads (this is generally handled in a benign way: a threadsplit)

Only the most conservative forums have their moderators jump at the first sign of dissent or swearing.

[Jamuk]

So far it seems as if all 11 pages have presented nothing but modifications of the same argument.
People who support toady's previous statements and his decision that he would rather not risk third party interfaces taking control of the game, and people saying that it won't happen.
I doubt toady wouldn't admit a third party interface COULD work wonders for his game.   But it also COULD cause lots of damage to the community that supports it.  We know that it is possible for third party interfaces to work wonders for dwarf fortress.  But, there is RISK involved in this. 

WE DON'T KNOW what exact effect that a third party interface system would have on the df community.
There is no possible way to know... and so by doing so Toady would be gambling on the community that has supported him and his ideas faithfully for years.

Have you ever thought that he just doesn't want to take the risk?  I mean have a heart, you can't possibly believe that there is absolutely no chance of what Toady has fortold to come true.  You may believe that the risks are worth it, but then again you have not spent years on this game.  That would be the equivalent of betting your house on a poker game.  Sure you may be very skilled at poker, but what about that small chance you will lose?  It is still there.  And Toady has the potential to cause damage to the years worth of work he has done.  You may not see the risk, but I doubt you have thought about it as much as Toady has since he started his game.  He just doesn't want to risk it.  Don't force him.  Maybe Toady doesn't want to lose years of work and the community he has built during it.

It is about risk and how much you are willing to bet against that risk.
We have made no large commitments to the project and will lose very little.  Therefore we believe that the risk is worth it for the chance of improving the game rapidly.
However Toady has commited years of his life to this game.  He stands to lose a lot.

Would you take plastic surgery if there was a .01% chance of death?  I wouldn't.  It isn't worth it.
You want Toady to perform that surgery on his game?  He would be gambling with years of his life for a pretty cover, and one that would come eventually if he just took his time.