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[isitanos]

it would require a lot of extra work just to get off the ground and then to maintain, giving all sorts of reasons such as the extra pressure, work and loss of control that it by definition entails.

Exactly why threads like these should go down on the toilet real fast. This was discussed before as youve said, and voila some genius -the OP- managed to create a similar thread. I find it hard to believe that some people just cant wait for the Presentation Arc -> proper interface. I think if modders will be allowed to create skins for the hardcoded interface what Toady will implent in the future, that will be perfectly enough.

Well, here's the "genius" speaking, and he's telling you that he followed the previous discussion, and that this thread is a new take on the same idea. Toady was interested but hesitant, and the interview (you should go read it) shows he's currently thinking about the interface and third party development, so it seemed like the right time to discuss the subject.

And you "guess" that Toady has said earlier he wouldn't release any source code? I'm not sure guessing is a strong basis for argumentation. Actually, he released the source to Kobold's Quest. He said no to people that suggested or requested that he opens his whole DF source code, some even wanted to buy it. But since in all the threads I have been following, I haven't seen anybody propose the duo: open-source client, closed source server, we can't suppose Toady has a made-up opinion about that.
(Disclaimer: there are other means to achieve the same goal than an open-source client, such as a public API, but to me they seem to represent more work for this game's creator.)

By the way don't mistake this for "a plan to steal DF source code": the basis for the new, open-source client could very well be written from scratch (sometimes it's easier than re-engineering the current code) by Toady, and so would not contain any current DF code. But as I said, I doubt the code he really cares about is the interface one.

[SirPenguin]

I'm going to blissfully ignore the mounds of text, which in turn are quoted and responded to with mountains of text, which in turn are quoted and responded to in god damn PLANETS of text.

Basically, I have nothing but respect and admiration for Toady, but he's approaching this whole thing with a healthy dose of selfishnesss.

He's stated - both outright and hinted at - that we, the gamers, the doners, etc., deserve an interface overhaul...however, he says that he probably won't do it until donations begin to lessen.

Isn't that pretty...you know, bad? So he'll continue to ignore the #1 request as long as we support him.

It's annoying, sure, but it can be fixed by saying, "Ok guys, I'll work on the bulk of the game, but I'll let modders fix the interface, as everyone has a different opinion as to what it should be." But he doesn't. Instead, he says he doesn't want to do that because he's afraid of losing control...and losing the moneyflow he currently has.

Always comes back to money. Kind of frustrating, isn't it? Doubly so, considering Toady is a indie dev...even the giants, such as EA and the like, understand the important of modding.

Toady is a great guy making a great game. But I fear his concern for his pocketbook is going to alienate people from the game we love so much.

[Tormy]

Toady was interested but hesitant, and the interview (you should go read it) shows he's currently thinking about the interface and third party development, so it seemed like the right time to discuss the subject.

Matt: Speaking of which, do you have any plans to up the modability of DF? I know at least one person who’s itching to build it into 3D. Even just isometric sprites or double-tall sprites for pseudo-3D.

Tarn: Well, there’s interface modability and other sorts of modability. I’m leery about third party interfaces. If a third party interface becomes popular, I think I might lose control of the project. I don’t want to be in a position where I have to accommodate and work with other people.

This is pretty clear, isnt it? 

[Tormy]

He's stated - both outright and hinted at - that we, the gamers, the doners, etc., deserve an interface overhaul...however, he says that he probably won't do it until donations begin to lessen.

Nop, he would be forced to work on the interface in that case. It doesnt means that he wont work on it in the upcoming months.

[Frobozz]

Oh my, a giant ad-hominem, let's address that. My good sir, you couldn't be able to figure out an API if it spat you in the eye and sodomized your dog. Obviously, you have never seen a "computor", and instead you have to resort to have your blind neighbor post these nonsense replies for you while you make cooing noises and point at the pretty pictures on the screen.

First off I'm not going to take you seriously. Why? Because your best attempt at "reasoning" starts off with you insulting your opponent. There is obviously no way to prove whether I'm typing these or some paid-by-the-line idiot coder who very well could be called "Sergius" is typing them for me while I coo at noises and point at the stars on my computer's screensaver.

Now, with that out of the way, I just happen to make APIs for a living, I am a computer analyst and programmer and I have been since the 1980s. I've programmed in BASIC, Pascal, C, C++, 8086 assembler, C for Windows, Java, and a bunch of stupid 4 GL languages that are good for nothing. A "well-thought API" is exactly what you WOULDN'T have during the alpha stage of a fan project.

Like you said, with that out of the way, I never claimed to program for a living. I claimed I had some knowledge on the subject, but I never claimed to have experience. Like you I've programmed/fiddled with a number of languages some of which you named. I never bothered with assembler past simple jobs I needed done that Borland C++ (which I used at the time) couldn't do.

Also I obviously never stated he should implement the API during an alpha stage. I clearly stated that I was giving a suggestion for a route he could take at a later date. Seeing that you program for a living and with APIs at that, I would have expected you to be able to understand English a little better. After all, don't you have to name/comment your APIs? Or do you just code and hope somebody can understand?

Changing the internals WITHOUT changing the API is exactly "tip-toeing". Unless you have a feature-frozen product, you don't want to distribute your API to everyone, with the (implicit) promise that future versions won't break API compatibility.

I never said they wouldn't break compatibility. But I did say with some careful thought you won't have to break compatibility except when you make fundamental, or non-minor, changes.

Alpha means UNSTABLE, if you don't know (you should pick up a book about programming someday, you might learn something). Regardless of the "testing" stage, it means that ANYTHING can change. Maintaining backwards compatiblity with a poorly-thought-up API during early stages of development would only lead to a maintenance hell and slow the feature releases to a grinding halt.

I'm quite aware of what alpha testing means. I'm not some two-bit programmer who doesn't have knowledge of anything but COBOL. Maintaining backwards compatibility for a poorly-designed API during any stage will only lead to maintenance hell. Obviously I stated a well-thought out API and I obviously did not state he had to implement it either now or ever. I was merely suggesting an alternative to a suggestion that had already been made by someone else.

[SirPenguin]

He's stated - both outright and hinted at - that we, the gamers, the doners, etc., deserve an interface overhaul...however, he says that he probably won't do it until donations begin to lessen.

Nop, he would be forced to work on the interface in that case. It doesnt means that he wont work on it in the upcoming months.

Fair enough. But in one of the audio interviews he clearly says (as clearly as my paraphrase goes), "Yes, you guys deserve it right now, but it's something I'll only look into if my revenue dries up"

[FlexibleDogma]

Toady was interested but hesitant, and the interview (you should go read it) shows he's currently thinking about the interface and third party development, so it seemed like the right time to discuss the subject.

Matt: Speaking of which, do you have any plans to up the modability of DF? I know at least one person who’s itching to build it into 3D. Even just isometric sprites or double-tall sprites for pseudo-3D.

Tarn: Well, there’s interface modability and other sorts of modability. I’m leery about third party interfaces. If a third party interface becomes popular, I think I might lose control of the project. I don’t want to be in a position where I have to accommodate and work with other people.

This is pretty clear, isnt it? 

Go go gadget quote tree!

If he says he's leery about it, and someone can POLITELY point out the reasons he shouldn't worry, I don't see the problem with that.  This whole thread started when someone was trying to discuss reasons why he shouldn't worry about that.  Yeah, there was stuff in there about an open-source client which muddied the waters considerably,  but an honest discussion of how a highly modable or 3rd party user interface would be a good thing shouldn't be shouted down out of hand.

Devils advocate:  Isn't Dwarf Companion a full-out replacement for the units screen?  Yes you can cheat with it, but all I've ever done is use it to sort units and such.  (i.e. Was it Urist McDwarfy or Urist McUrist I was training in bonecrafting?)

[isitanos]

Toady was interested but hesitant, and the interview (you should go read it) shows he's currently thinking about the interface and third party development, so it seemed like the right time to discuss the subject.

Matt: Speaking of which, do you have any plans to up the modability of DF? I know at least one person who’s itching to build it into 3D. Even just isometric sprites or double-tall sprites for pseudo-3D.

Tarn: Well, there’s interface modability and other sorts of modability. I’m leery about third party interfaces. If a third party interface becomes popular, I think I might lose control of the project. I don’t want to be in a position where I have to accommodate and work with other people.

This is pretty clear, isnt it? 

What's pretty clear is "I don’t want to be in a position where I have to accommodate and work with other people."

What's less clear is "I’m leery about third party interfaces. If a third party interface becomes popular, I think I might lose control of the project."
Toady is suspicious of third party interfaces, because he thinks they might make him lose control of the project. He's suspicious, not 100% sure. He didn't say "there'll never be third-party interfaces".

I think Toady is perhaps too suspicious, and that's why this thread is necessary: so we can discuss the incidence and feasability of third-party interfaces in depth. I may be proven wrong in the process, but that's ok. I may also be proven right. In the end, it's still Toady's decision.

[Tormy]

Devils advocate:  Isn't Dwarf Companion a full-out replacement for the units screen?  Yes you can cheat with it, but all I've ever done is use it to sort units and such.  (i.e. Was it Urist McDwarfy or Urist McUrist I was training in bonecrafting?)

Yep, but it has nothing to do with the source code, correct?
Besides I can totally understand Toady. If I would make a game, I wouldnt give out any source code either... until I plan to update the game at least.
Revamped interface will come, just wait for it. These people should post ideas that what interface would they like to see, instead of asking for the interface source code.

[Tormy]

In the end, it's still Toady's decision.

Yeah, hopefully Toady will reply in this thread, Im really wondering what will he say, even tho I am almost certain that what will he post. 

[Omega2]

Devils advocate:  Isn't Dwarf Companion a full-out replacement for the units screen?  Yes you can cheat with it, but all I've ever done is use it to sort units and such.  (i.e. Was it Urist McDwarfy or Urist McUrist I was training in bonecrafting?)

Yep, but it has nothing to do with the source code, correct?
Besides I can totally understand Toady. If I would make a game, I wouldnt give out any source code either... until I plan to update the game at least.
Revamped interface will come, just wait for it. These people should post ideas that what interface would they like to see, instead of asking for the interface source code.

That's the thing: they're asking for better mod support when it comes to interface. You don't need to see DF's source code to do that. Dwarf Companion and Foreman are two examples of what I'm talking about: those programs interact with Dwarf Fortress, sending and receiving information, but neither needed any access to DF's source code to do that.

It's probably possible to create a whole functioning third-party interface as it is right now, it's just pretty complex and requires a lot of memory fiddling.

Plus, what isitanos said...

Here's another advantage of third-party development: if a third-party client becomes popular, it can show Toady which kind of interface people really like, and he can start to integrate some of the ideas (or even code, if it's open-source and the third-party clients have to publish their changes) in his official client. Right now, he has to try to figure out beforehand what would be a good interface, and will likely have to go through several interface prototypes before people are even marginally satisfied. Interface design is one of the hardest part of software development...

... is completely true. I work with interfaces (both for web and programs), and creating the interface for complex systems is not an easy task to carry out alone. Many prototypes are usually needed, and user feedback is absolutely necessary to avoid having a very powerful final product with a clunky user interface. With games a good interface is absolutely necessary, and having a good knowledge base to work with (from the modders who already designed and received feedback from their own interfaces) might even make his job easier in the long run as well as make DF more accesible.

[Langdon]

He's stated - both outright and hinted at - that we, the gamers, the doners, etc., deserve an interface overhaul...however, he says that he probably won't do it until donations begin to lessen.

<snip>

Always comes back to money. Kind of frustrating, isn't it? Doubly so, considering Toady is a indie dev...even the giants, such as EA and the like, understand the important of modding.

Toady is a great guy making a great game. But I fear his concern for his pocketbook is going to alienate people from the game we love so much.

I have a different take on Toady's stance - it's not that he is holding the interface work hostage in order to drum up more donations - it's that he doesn't like working on the interface as much as working on the other arcs. It's a question of motivation - until he's starving and has no other choice, then he'll start doing the parts he finds not as interesting. Until then, he'll keep working on the parts that make him happy, because at the bottom of everything - he's doing this because he loves it. He just happens to love some parts more than the others.

Totally just my opinion, of course. What I feel is that if people do give good, workable, INTERESTING suggestions for the Presentation Arc, he'll try to do his best to implement them ahead of schedule. "Interesting" in that he'll be motivated to implement them alongside the Caravan and Army arcs as they would make parts of the Caravan and Army arcs easier to code.

The other thread (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21099.0) on this subject is probably far more useful, as that has interface mockups and actual, meaty suggestions. This particular thread's title ("losing control of the project") is a little more flame-baity, which probably explains the higher temperature setting.

[Sergius]

First off I'm not going to take you seriously. Why? Because your best attempt at "reasoning" starts off with you insulting your opponent.

First off, you sir, don't know what you're talking about. Obviously you have no experience at all with software development.

See what you did there?

I would have expected you to be able to understand English a little better.

None of that insulting the opponent business going on here. Move along now.

[Frobozz]

See what you did there?

I had a feeling I was insulting someone earlier but I didn't remember it being you. Once a thread gets long like this I start forgetting what I've already posted. Kudos to finding an inconsistency.

[Mithaldu]

To the people complaining about Toady "holding the interface hostage".

Dramatizing things a bit, there are two groups here:

GROUP ONE:

We play it as it is now, we have fun with it and enjoy it. We like what new stuff Toady adds to the gameplay. We donate occasionally and enough to allow him to live.

GROUP TWO:

We would like the game if it were easier to play because :effort:. We don't give a crap about the new stuff because we think the current interface is horrible to play with. We don't donate until the interface is better.

---

Right now there are enough people in GROUP ONE to allow Toady to live. Last i heard he isn't doing the high life on the mounds of cash he receives, but working hard and getting along without having to beg for food.

Right now he is working on keeping these people happy as doing that also makes HIM happy. He ignores GROUP TWO because he is not greedy.

However, when GROUP ONE gets smaller, he will turn to things that will make him unhappy, but will allow him to remain afloat and make both groups happy.