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[sphr]

disclaimer: i'm not here to argue. this may sidetrack a little... but just in case your are more interested in playing (and trying to find an easier way to play) than to preach about sw dev (no offence, but every sw dev knows that theories works perfectly only in theory, but I'm not here to argue).

So if you are interested in 'better' playing, here's a setup I improvised using 3rd party tools that I find quite good...

I play dwarf fortress on a dual screen setup.... well at first I tried to play it on a 2560x800 window across both monitor (had to blow up the tilesets) but after the initial excitement wears off, I realized that what I need is not bigger tiles, what I need is to see more 'tiles'.  of coz, df tile dimension being fixed, i had to attack the problem at the root.  why do I want to see more tiles?  more tiles = more information!   what i really want is more information feedback and better control...

Dwarf Fortress Setup take ##(lost count)
right monitor:
..top half DF at 1280x400
..bottom half Dwarf Foreman
left monitor:
..fullscreen Dwarf Companion

Dwarf Companion
Dwarf Companion, although a prototype (not advised to try to do any "writes"), reading information showing all dwarf names, profession, current job, skill (levels), able to sort on columns and ability to instantly zoom to any dwarf is great.  By comparison, if you want to say find out about the skill level of a dwarf directly in DF, you have to do a "u-[up/down]-c-g-[/*]" sequence to see the skill level of a SINGLE dwarf.

The heal and hurt function serves both as for beginners who just switched over from perfectionist gaming (who can't stand a single stain on their 'victories'.... let alone appreciating "losing is fun". don't worry, after a while, you'll join the second group) and those who played DF for a long time and aim for more ... 'interesting' ways to lose goals.  still, even for the second group, the 'cheats' sometimes come in handy to desperately rescue the almost finished 'domino setup'... (e.g. planning the perfect noble executing suite and then you find that the last noble just get mortally mauled by a wild animal... or healing that almost dead megabeast to keep it ard for more 'applications'...)    I don't recommend meddling with the rest as it seems unsafe at this pt (wait until it becomes more updated?).  Other useful reads include listing the class of required ingredients for a artifact.  no more waiting for dwarf to mumble at the workshop and transcribing the mumbles to paper.

Dwarf Foreman
Personally, i find Dwarf Foreman more indispensable than Dwarf Companion.  it allows reading/assigning of dwarf labour by profession names.  After I start using custom profession names to manage all my dwarves, managing them has never been simpler.  A single click will either turn on or turn off a labour for all dwarves of that profession name.  Example, say you have massive building job?  turn off all tasks for all 10 dwarves with "Builder" profession other than mining by just clicking a few times on a 'poke sheet'.  After your building project is done, turn the misc jobs back on with a few clicks.  compare this with the in-game part where you have to hunt down each "Builder" dwarf and scroll through it's job list manually to turn on or off the tasks. Foreman is already almost perfect, and quite robust too (never crashed or messed up DF).  If I really have to complain abt it, i'll have to be really picky, say that showing number of dwarves in a profession or not using slanted text for column headings (which sometimes make it hard to judge which column belongs to which job type).


both Dwarf Foreman and Dwarf Companion listed on the wiki.

Improvisation.  Creative people simply cannot be imprisoned.
Maybe someday, when DF interface catches up, it will obseletes all these "helpers".  But in the meantime, we have the memory hackers (and tool dev), who should be enshrined on a smaller pedestal for decoding the human genome  mapping out the memory structure of DF piece by piece.  (I guess on the bigger pedestal, we have to put a certain somebody who created the 'human genome' in the first place... )  Thus, Toady can choose to focus on enriching the game itself without trying to change the foundation of a standing building in a display of sparks and smoke.  (he can prob wait for a good time and opportunity when he wants to build a new building)

hope this could be useful suggestion to some people, though it is not for beginners (prob requires in-depth knowledge of game mechanics, which translates to: learn to play the game raw without any helpers first.  Then you can maximize the potential of the helpers later.

[Dasleah]

Random Joe: DF should be Open Source! Or at least the interface!

Toady: No. I've said it plenty of times before, it's not going to happen, for reasons that I've explained dozens of times before.

Random Joe: BUT OPEN SOURCE *froth at the mouth*

Repeat ad infintium et naeseum.

(yeah, yeah, my latin's probably screwy)

[Doppel]

I don't understand anything about programming. (so my question may or may not be related)
But, why is it that, like sphr stated, you pretty much have half a normal monitor of tilespace? And can't anything be done about that? (I'm guessing its native to ASCII somehow, sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning this)

[Tormy]

I don't understand anything about programming. (so my question may or may not be related)
But, why is it that, like sphr stated, you pretty much have half a normal monitor of tilespace? And can't anything be done about that? (I'm guessing its native to ASCII somehow, sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning this)

Nop, I guess its more about the OpenGL engine what DF is using...but I might be wrong.

[Riemann]

I don't understand anything about programming. (so my question may or may not be related)
But, why is it that, like sphr stated, you pretty much have half a normal monitor of tilespace? And can't anything be done about that? (I'm guessing its native to ASCII somehow, sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning this)

DF was originally based on a certain ASCII-like game engine called Curses. It has long since outgrown this engine but is still stuck with some of it's inane limitations such as a fixed number of tiles.

Presumably (from talking to Toady at the meetup) one of the core components of the Presentation arc will be removing this limitation.

[Tormy]

I don't understand anything about programming. (so my question may or may not be related)
But, why is it that, like sphr stated, you pretty much have half a normal monitor of tilespace? And can't anything be done about that? (I'm guessing its native to ASCII somehow, sorry for my lack of knowledge concerning this)

DF was originally based on a certain ASCII-like game engine called Curses. It has long since outgrown this engine but is still stuck with some of it's inane limitations such as a fixed number of tiles.

Presumably (from talking to Toady at the meetup) one of the core components of the Presentation arc will be removing this limitation.

Yeah so its the engine. Its awesome that the limitation will be removed btw. Oh boy I cant wait for the Presentation Arc also. 

[Doppel]

Wow, i didn't know this, thats great news. Strange how everytime i visit the forums i get to know stuff wich makes me happier about whats to come. And its already so great.

[sphr]

at that time, opengl doesn't exists yet...  i think it relates more to the old days where students uses dumb terminals (vt100?200?) with only green colour text with a backend "super" computer that probably has a fraction of the processing power your modern microwave has.

a few things about the old days:
-terminal screen size is fixed. the golden ratio of harmony is 80x25(24?)
-there's a thing called "cursor" and it has nothing to do with rodents.  mouse hasn't been invented yet.  it was later that mice almost stole that term.
-text general flows down (moves upwards).  trying to display things at fixed screen position was a black art.  curses was one of the crowns of those arts.  it made "graphics" possible....  a well known child is called rogue.
-font is not square.  (which is why when a screen tile is made square, it becomes elongated and no longer fits the aspect ratio... though two 4:3 screens would fit it nicely )

[Doppel]

I was pondering about tiles the other day, and what i was thinking was having 2 2:1 tiles next to eachother wich would act as one tile if needed (a square room would be a square) and when used for fluid text it would use just the one tile per symbol. Might be a dumb idea though.

[Anu Necunoscut]

You're also failing to notice that his housing is currently being paid for by this particular community. In a sense he has to let us play with his toys or he loses his income. Not that I'm trying to sound threatening. Like I said above, he could simply use the idea I gave to implement his own interface and never give the source or permission to do the same to anyone.

However someone creating their own interface can already be done. People are already hacking the game as it runs, placing hooks into it in a sense that allow them to pinpoint the location of various things. Its merely a matter of time until someone writes something similar to create a third party interface.

Sorry, that -does- sound like a threat to me, and it's in extremely poor taste.  "Give us access because we can hack it eventually, plus he is obligated to do so because his fanbase controls his income" is a bunch of nonsense.  Why?

1.  This game is free.  Free!  You aren't obligated, coerced, or compelled to donate in any way.  You're simply free to do so if you enjoy the game.  What right do you have to speak for the community in proclaiming that Toady -owes- us anything?  The donation page doesn't include any promises about delivering increased access or partial ownership, it merely hopes you enjoyed the games and want Bay12 to continue.  Seriously, donation with attached expectations?  Might this smug attitude of ownership be exactly indicative of what's at risk if he opens up the code?  Won't those who add in popular GUIs just feel a further sense of "ownership?"

2.  It's the work of one guy!  He's poured -years- into this, man!  Modders can (and will) come and go, messing with a few peripheral elements in their free-time, uncommitted in any lasting way to the overall future of the game.  Toady will doubtless mess with other projects, but this is a huge investment for him right now.  If it should fail, that's a serious blow to him, whereas to the modders it would be more like "eh, DF was cool while it lasted.  What's the next game?"

No disrespect to the modding community--their enthusiasm and cleverness is an inspiration.  I have no doubt that the desire to have more control over modding the game comes from a good and earnest place.  In other words, I'm not accusing anyone of malevolent or uncaring motivations here.  But from my perspective (and maybe mine alone) I really hate the sound of "we donate, you depend on such, therefore you owe us."  That's fucked up.  Bizarrely it's a threat that can only affect the little developers, the ones most deserving of support.  The largest ones couldn't give two shits about their communities.  Little indie developers that make great games -for free- should be treated like the princes of gamedom they are, not accosted with veiled threats.

[Puzzlemaker]

You're also failing to notice that his housing is currently being paid for by this particular community. In a sense he has to let us play with his toys or he loses his income. Not that I'm trying to sound threatening. Like I said above, he could simply use the idea I gave to implement his own interface and never give the source or permission to do the same to anyone.

However someone creating their own interface can already be done. People are already hacking the game as it runs, placing hooks into it in a sense that allow them to pinpoint the location of various things. Its merely a matter of time until someone writes something similar to create a third party interface.

Sorry, that -does- sound like a threat to me, and it's in extremely poor taste.  "Give us access because we can hack it eventually, plus he is obligated to do so because his fanbase controls his income" is a bunch of nonsense.  Why?

1.  This game is free.  Free!  You aren't obligated, coerced, or compelled to donate in any way.  You're simply free to do so if you enjoy the game.  What right do you have to speak for the community in proclaiming that Toady -owes- us anything?  The donation page doesn't include any promises about delivering increased access or partial ownership, it merely hopes you enjoyed the games and want Bay12 to continue.  Seriously, donation with attached expectations?  Might this smug attitude of ownership be exactly indicative of what's at risk if he opens up the code?  Won't those who add in popular GUIs just feel a further sense of "ownership?"

2.  It's the work of one guy!  He's poured -years- into this, man!  Modders can (and will) come and go, messing with a few peripheral elements in their free-time, uncommitted in any lasting way to the overall future of the game.  Toady will doubtless mess with other projects, but this is a huge investment for him right now.  If it should fail, that's a serious blow to him, whereas to the modders it would be more like "eh, DF was cool while it lasted.  What's the next game?"

No disrespect to the modding community--their enthusiasm and cleverness is an inspiration.  I have no doubt that the desire to have more control over modding the game comes from a good and earnest place.  In other words, I'm not accusing anyone of malevolent or uncaring motivations here.  But from my perspective (and maybe mine alone) I really hate the sound of "we donate, you depend on such, therefore you owe us."  That's fucked up.  Bizarrely it's a threat that can only affect the little developers, the ones most deserving of support.  The largest ones couldn't give two shits about their communities.  Little indie developers that make great games -for free- should be treated like the princes of gamedom they are, not accosted with veiled threats.

^^Agreed 100%

[Tormy]

I really hate the sound of "we donate, you depend on such, therefore you owe us."  That's fucked up.  Bizarrely it's a threat that can only affect the little developers, the ones most deserving of support.  The largest ones couldn't give two shits about their communities.  Little indie developers that make great games -for free- should be treated like the princes of gamedom they are, not accosted with veiled threats.

Well said...not to mention that Toady IS listening to his community. He is constantly monitoring the player's feedback.

You're also failing to notice that his housing is currently being paid for by this particular community. In a sense he has to let us play with his toys or he loses his income. Not that I'm trying to sound threatening.

Mate what about GTFO? So you are not trying to sound threatening eh? Think before you post next time.

[Andir]

I've been saying the same thing as the OP for months (but it all ends in the same arguments...)  "Get off my lawn!!!"

It's sad really.  People are hung up on the idea that somehow the person writing the closed source server with all the goodies in it will not benefit from the added time at doing what he seems to enjoy the most.  Features over frill.  They assume that Open Source is the end of the world.  (Microsoft has taught them well!)  They also assume (or are scared?) that the interface/controls will change.  As stated several times, it's just a matter of abstracting the interface from the engine and passing a few variables back and forth.  Toady could maintain his clunky interface for all the "die hard" fans and someone could be off making an interface to show off what Toady can do in the engine.  Hell, he might even get a boost in donations from all the added players or heaven forbid a job offer on his terms.  Nobody knows.

[grelphy]

Alright. I want nothing to do with this argument (there will be no winner), but I'm seeing a lot of misunderstandings I'd like to try and clear up.

First: Proponents of an external interface are trying to help. This is not some sinister project to steal the source code to DF. It is widely acknowledged that the interface is one of the major barriers to new players. Toady is busy bugfixing or implementing gameplay awesomeness, and the rough (to put it lightly) state of the interface is left to sit in favor of elven cannibals, demons loaded with kilotons of bone trinkets and massive three-way worldgen wars. I don't think any here would argue that the interface is more important than the gameplay, and so potential converts--lots of them--get scared off by the interface and are likely to continue to be scared for some time. External interface proponents are suggesting a way to improve the interface without taking Toady's attention away from the gameplay. Sounds like a great idea to me.

Second: Toady has made is position on this sort of thing very clear. He doesn't want outsiders working of DF. That's a perfectly reasonable position, and arguing with him about it will get you nowhere. It's his decision to make. I think suggestions are wonderful things (and apparently he does too--we have an entire subforum for them, and good ones get implemented with a frequency I've never seen in any other project), but y'all have to stay realistic. Just like he's unlikely to implement elven rocket launchers (if someone were to request that), he's also unlikely to implement an API for a third-party interface; in fact, he's said this already.

Third: Y'all need to stop flaming each other. It's really not that big of a deal, and besides, Toady will decide what he wants to do. Your lovely Internet argument will make no difference at all. I know how easy it is to get worked up over this stuff (I've got some guy on Reddit trying to convince me that GNOME == Win95... RAAAGE), but really, try to calm down. It's not that big a deal.

And finally... I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm in this for the game. There is nothing else with this level of depth. As far as I'm concerned, the interface could start taking giant steps backwards and the game would still be worth playing. It's worthwhile to keep that in mind.

_{(And finally finally: Toady, I would like to request elven rocket launchers. I think that would be totally awesome. KTHXBYE)}

[Anu Necunoscut]

They assume that Open Source is the end of the world.  (Microsoft has taught them well!)

Who here has been saying anything against open source, or spewing Microsoft propaganda?  There shouldn't be any need for  disingenuous rhetorical tricks here--we both want what's best for the game, even if we disagree on what exactly that means.  I won't frame your opinion as an ugly stereotype, so please don't do the same with mine.

They also assume (or are scared?) that the interface/controls will change.  As stated several times, it's just a matter of abstracting the interface from the engine and passing a few variables back and forth.  Toady could maintain his clunky interface for all the "die hard" fans and someone could be off making an interface to show off what Toady can do in the engine.  Hell, he might even get a boost in donations from all the added players or heaven forbid a job offer on his terms.  Nobody knows.

There are a few assumptions there I can dispel: I don't mind a changing interface, I just don't see a need for compelling Toady to give up a core aspect of the game to modders in order to achieve it.  For every resounding open-source GUI success like FreeCiv, there are hundreds of failures, many of which are killed by the huge administrative task of wrangling disparate, ephemeral developers who aren't necessarily tied strongly to the project. 

Also, it's not simply a matter of asking him to abstract the interface, but to maintain that abstraction through updates, some of which may rework the game's mechanics substantially.  It's extra work on the front-end before all the mechanics are even worked out, and thus may have to rebuilt several times over.  Also, let's say Toady implements this separation, but fails to update it perfectly for a release: people will complain that their favorite client no longer works, and the makers of those clients may start making demands for fixes and getting full of themselves, feeling they are an integral part of the game.  Plus, a whole new host of bugs will be created of questionable ownership--is it Toady's bug?  Is it the modder's bug?  Who knows?  If the modded interface doesn't work, where does the problem lie?

I've seen these issues spring up in many a modding community.  Again, no one's heart is in the wrong place, everyone loves the game and wants what's best for it, but those are some problems that can arise.  In the end it's Toady's game, and if he doesn't want the administrative work of opening a major element of his game to outside modders, I have no problem with that and can understand it.

It -can- work out to everyone's benefit as you say, and speed development time while adding quality, but it doesn't always.  Not every project is right for it, and not every developer wants to take the extra work on.  Hatred for open source and blind worship of Toady isn't the only possible motivation for disagreeing, in other words.  Peace.  :-)