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Author Topic: Water powered car  (Read 11482 times)

Duke 2.0

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2008, 05:28:47 pm »

 Saying Hydrogen can power a car is like saying Electricity can power a car. Sure burning the stuff will only lead to water and energy being made, but how do you get it? There are no reserves, despite most of the universe being made of the stuff. Using Hydrogen to power something is like using oil to power stuff, except we need to take a bunch of dead things and put them in energy-draining compressors to make our own oil instead of extracting it.

 Personally? I say we just keep with oil 'till we get something most of the scientific community agrees is scientifically found(Even if it requires a few laws of physics to be "Revised"), economically better than oil and/or more reliable/cheaper to manufacture than our current power-generating technology.

 However, if science can be revised to allow for some of these exotic forms of energy to be feasible, i'll stand behind it.
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Idiom

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2008, 05:41:37 pm »

I'm tempted to turn this thread into a general alternative energy discussion to allow for expansion.

Hydrogen can power a car. You just need an energy efficient means of acquiring it. The reason oil is particularly energy efficient is that it's already there in mass quantities.
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Qmarx

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2008, 05:45:39 pm »

Are you suggesting magnets that continuously push each other around?
I fiddled with that ages ages ago (I was using K'nex to give you an idea of how long ago).
Quote
without repulsion at any other point in the cycle...
That's the catch.
That, and magnets aren't permanent.  They'll eventually lose their repulsion.  It's possible to use magnets as very unconventional batteries.  It's just not a good idea.
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SHAD0Wdump

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2008, 06:43:34 pm »

And theres a air-powered car...
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LASD

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2008, 04:15:07 am »

economically better than oil and/or more reliable/cheaper to manufacture than our current power-generating technology.
There's one thing missing there. This new power-generating system should be above all more enviromentally friendly. The fact that oil has such a bad impact on the world is the reason why we need other sources of energy. (and because it will run out at some point.)

Also we need the new source fast, because using oil will get worse as long as it's used as much as it is now.. So we don't have time to wait for an optimal solution and stick to oil while looking for it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 04:23:15 am by LASD »
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A_Fey_Dwarf

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2008, 04:22:43 am »

It's just a matter of splitting the hydrogen molecule and then using that to fuel something.  There's some guy on YouTube who does this stuff, but I can't find his videos at the moment...  Give me a while and I'll see if I can find it again.

Fixed
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Neskiairti

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2008, 04:46:44 am »

so, a few people have missed something.. :P

there is an efficient way to create hydrogen.. its not exactly fast.. but its a passive system..

my family was looking at getting it for heating, but didnt.. due to the price..

pretty much, you stick your roof covered in solar pannles, and they lead to the garage where you have an electrolysis tank.. the process is simple.. the problem is producing enough energy.. efficiency wise.. power plants would just be a waste.. but if every other person in america or some country had one of these, collecting electricity from the sun to power the hydrogen production.. we would never have to worry about fule again :P its just slow...
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2008, 07:27:19 am »

The only reason hydrogen is better than electricity, is because it's easier to store, as a power medium, than raw electricity. To hold electricity, you need chemical accumulators. To store hydrogen, you need a only a dense metal tank, so the thing won't diffuse itself outta there. Storing energy as water is even easier, but it requires access to electricity, or chemicals, so it's easy for storage but bad in other respects, I think. It's the reason gasoline is so popular - it's like water, but it burns by itself.

Now, back to magnets. Using them as "unconventional batteries" is the entire point here, it's not like anyone's trying to create a "perpetuum mobile" here. The mechanical parts of the thing would wear out long before the magnets themselves would be significatly exhausted, anyways. If a PM motor would have to have its magnets changed every year to keep efficiency up, how would that be bad?

Of course, the magnets, even if a proper and reliable design was created, are not the source of power here, they're still the medium, since magnets, even rare-earth ones, have to be "charged" by electromagnets. The whole point is being able to run a whole year without caring about energy, then get to a service station, swap depleted magnets for a new set fresh off the charging rack, and run for another year. Efficiency be damned, if a mobile power source can be created in such a way, it must be done.
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Neskiairti

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2008, 07:32:44 am »

well.. get on the designs! :P
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Qmarx

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 10:47:15 am »

Now, back to magnets. Using them as "unconventional batteries" is the entire point here, it's not like anyone's trying to create a "perpetuum mobile" here. The mechanical parts of the thing would wear out long before the magnets themselves would be significatly exhausted, anyways. If a PM motor would have to have its magnets changed every year to keep efficiency up, how would that be bad?

Magnets are extremely inefficient for energy storage.  Creating a magnet artificially takes a ridiculous amount of electrical energy (try hooking up a copper coil to a 9-volt, and try magnetizing a paperclip), and once you're actually extracting a non-negligible amount of power from the magnetic field the magnets weaken fairly quickly. 

If you paid attention to the magnets your science teachers kept, you'd notice they had to pack them in a special way to prevent them from being demagnetized, even when they weren't doing any significant work. 

Besides, you lose energy way too many times.  You convert between states five times.

WhateverYouUseToGenerateElectricityInTheFirstPlace-> Electrical
Electrical -> Magnetic
Magnetic -> Mechanical
Mechanical -> Electrical
Electrical -> Mechanical.

Using magnets directly to drive an engine would be a horrible design nightmare (just off the top of my head: different power output based on how long you ran it, worries about other ferromagnetic influences, alignment of moving parts, inability to use magnetic alloys, large and bulky connections, inability to control rate of spin, low torque), so you'd have to run a generator with a spinning magnetic wheel.  In addition, you'd have to watch to make sure the magnets don't get too hot or jolted around, as that demagnetizes them as well.

There's a reason they aren't used.  The energy storage density is low, the power output is low, the efficiency is low, the array is delicate, and storage is a major hassle.

So, to round up the alternative energy list...

Hydrogen isn't easy to store at all.  It's explosive, is the most readily diffusing gas, is a gas in the first place, and reacts with all sorts of things you don't want it to.  I've seen some tentative progress with buckyballs that may make widespread and safe implementation possible in, say, twenty years.  Before then, don't get your hopes up.

Biodeisel is actually a good idea, although the ridiculously cheap stuff people are making in their backyards isn't really that representative a sample (the supply of restaurants with free leftover cooking oil is fairly low).  On the other hand, all you need to do to convert a diesel motor is put in biodiesel, drive ten miles, replace your filter with a new one, and off you go.  Given that the USA is the world's largest producer of soybeans, their oil crisis may be resolved with soybean oil, although I don't know enough to say how much energy it costs to produce, and what output you'd get.

Ethanol is a bad idea as currently implemented, simply because corn isn't the best choice of crop.  Algae might work, as could several other plants, but corn isn't ready yet.


There's no real reason to carry around water for fuel - all the designs I've seen involving it use hydrogen fuel cells, and make hydrogen from water.  That's fine as far as it goes, but you're really just carrying around the water from your exhaust and using the hydrogen as your battery.  The power has to come from elsewhere, like solar panels or the electrical grid.

Depending on how research goes, fusion seems like it could be a possibility for electrical power generation.  Boron-based fusion looks promising since the radiation produced is minimal.  The Bussard polywell design is interesting, but I would need someone with more technical knowledge than I to look it over.

Nuclear fission power is sadly underutilized everywhere except France.  It's clean, it's safe, it's already here.  Unfortunately, public perception is negative enough that self-proclaimed "environmentalists" can put a halt to projects by raising the nuclear bogeyman.

Natural gas is too cheap.  So cheap it gets wasted at the well when the price drops too much.  Better than releasing it into the air unburned, I admit (even worse for global warming then), but the development of some kind of small powerplant for the wells would eliminate a large amount of waste

Solar panels seem like a good idea, but they still have a lot to gain in efficiency before they arrive.  The same can be said for wind power, but there's also the added worry about abuse of wind power causing undesirable climate change (extract enough energy from the weather, and I guarantee you'll see some effects).  Hydroelectric dams cause small-to-medium earthquakes in the surrounding areas if they're large enough, and kill off river species.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 10:49:10 am by Qmarx »
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Jreengus

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2008, 10:59:22 am »

Your all overthinking this, we should just pack everyone up  on a giant rocket fly to the nearest planet with conditions and lifeforms similar to earths kill of the more dangerous animals and use their oil, once it starts running out/planet begins to get pollouted we head back to earth. the massive travel time would mean that the oil reserves have replenished. we can keep doing this forever.
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Neskiairti

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2008, 11:07:59 am »

there is one major problem with uranium as a power source.. it will run out faster than oil and coal :P

there are pleanty of other radioactive materials sure but most of them are very inefficient to use in a reactor... even if they can be..

ethenol is crap really.. burns too hot.. and hard to make.. soybean oil will most certainly be the rout america goes once people stop fantasizing about fuel cells and solar powered cars... maybe some day.. maybe.. but in the mean time.. its going to be combustion of oil.
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Qmarx

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2008, 11:53:04 am »

there is one major problem with uranium as a power source.. it will run out faster than oil and coal :P

Not really.  And by not really, I mean if we kept our current rate of energy consumption, we'd eventually run out... billions of years later.  Like, halfway to the death of the sun billions of years later.

They actually stopped prospecting for uranium about fifty or so years ago, simply because there's so much of it.  It's in seawater, it's in coal deposits, it's freakin' everywhere.  It isn't all directly usable uranium, but that's where breeder reactors (like France's) come in. 
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Kagus

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2008, 03:29:44 pm »

Okay, found the vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDBJCRCe_E&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im2bLKmHJks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p_POzKoGr0&feature=user

His external power source is the ambient temperature.  Apparently, he managed to get the molecules "primed" to a point where the only extra energy they need to split comes from the ambient temperature of the room. 

He also has a few links to a website that apparently has his reports on how this thing's been working.  I suggest checking it out, as I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Neskiairti

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Re: Water powered car
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2008, 08:46:54 pm »

Qmarx i just did a look up, and your right.. :P it seems I was drinking the koolaid.. -goes back to milk-

science class saying our uranium would run out in 50 years at current use :P
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