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[Roundabout Lout]

I have a few questions about certain pieces of armor in the next release.

1. What is protected with an iron cap vs. an iron helm?
In my mind, a cap will protect the skull while a helm would protect the entire head. (i.e. a copper bolt hits the iron helm, head is bruised, an eye possibly blackened. But the same bolt hits an iron cap wielder and pokes an eye out)

2. What do gauntlets protect?
I've never really known this one. I figured the gauntlets would protect hands, possibly the lower arm. I'm not sure what protects the upper arms.

3. I take it chainmail won't be effective against piercing attacks like bolts?
This is a simple one, and I think it might have already been answered.

4. Can armor break and become less useful?

Sorry if these have already been answered.

[Neonivek]

1. What is protected with an iron cap vs. an iron helm?
In my mind, a cap will protect the skull while a helm would protect the entire head. (i.e. a copper bolt hits the iron helm, head is bruised, an eye possibly blackened. But the same bolt hits an iron cap wielder and pokes an eye out)

2. What do gauntlets protect?
I've never really known this one. I figured the gauntlets would protect hands, possibly the lower arm. I'm not sure what protects the upper arms.

3. I take it chainmail won't be effective against piercing attacks like bolts?
This is a simple one, and I think it might have already been answered.

4. Can armor break and become less useful?

1. Helm provides more defense and is also heavier. Helms also cannot layer so you can wear a cap and helmet.

2. Hands

3. NOTHING is good against piercing attacks! They will go through platemail like butter! Ignoring that, Chainmail is just a lighter, less defensive, version of platemail that can layer. Even if Peircing attacks were balanced it has peircing defense no greater or less then any other armor of the same defense.
-Also Chainmail... Proper chainmail... Is good against Peircing attacks historically speaking. Though this is apperantly up for debate.
--Also this is subject to change. Currently piercing weapons are very elite weapons... The reason Spears arn't downright destroyers of all is due to their tendency to get stuck very easily. (Crossbows, which are rapid fire in Dwarf Fortress, don't have to worry about that)... That AND ranged weapons, if I can remember correctly, cannot be dodged and can barely be defended against.
---Note: Reading the Wiki I see that its block is segregated between two values... One COULD be for range... OR another area of the body. Hardly matters since even Artifact armor can have trouble blocking crossbows/Arrows/darts/tacks/pointysticks

4. currently no. This is as I said... subject to change.

[Mel_Vixen]

Ok to number 3 from the German wikipedia so i have an source. The german wikipedia itself has as source The "german Museum of History in berlin" that should be relieable enought on this. What did i want to say? Ah yes!:

"Qualitativ hochwertige Plattenpanzer wurden im 15. Jahrhundert gegen Armbrustbolzen, im 16. und 17. Jahrhundert gegen Arkebusen- und Pistolenschüsse getestet. Wenn der Bolzen bzw. die Kugel vom Brustpanzer abprallte, wurde dieser mit dem Beschaustempel der entsprechenden Plattnerzunft versehen [...] Nur wenige Rüstungen konnten erfolgreich gegen Musketenschüsse getestet werden"

Translation (a bit rought thought):

"High Quality Platemail was tested in the 15 Century against Crossbowbolts, in the 16th and 17 Century against Arkebuse and Pistol shots. If the the Platemail deflected the Bullit/Bolt it got the quality seal from the producing Plating guild [...] Only a few Armors were teted succesfully against Muskets."

You see Platemail was efective aigainst crossbows and if you still dont believe me here an Picture of an platemeil wich got tested against an crossbow:



As sidenote: Your weapon needs an certain force and crossection if you want to break throught thick plating. An Platebreaker ("Panzerbrecher"/"Panzerstecher"/"Miséricorde") the ancestor of the latter Stillet had an triangular or sometime rectangular crossection and to get through think plates you had to use both hands.

This weapons were wonderfull against normal Chainmail to cause they were pionty as an needle and could by this lodge into one ring and break it from the inside while being pressed deeper in the flesh of an victim. They were poor cutting weapons on the other hand which was an mayor problemm against unarmored troops like light infantary.

[G-Flex]

1. What is protected with an iron cap vs. an iron helm?
In my mind, a cap will protect the skull while a helm would protect the entire head. (i.e. a copper bolt hits the iron helm, head is bruised, an eye possibly blackened. But the same bolt hits an iron cap wielder and pokes an eye out)

2. What do gauntlets protect?
I've never really known this one. I figured the gauntlets would protect hands, possibly the lower arm. I'm not sure what protects the upper arms.

3. I take it chainmail won't be effective against piercing attacks like bolts?
This is a simple one, and I think it might have already been answered.

4. Can armor break and become less useful?

1. Helm provides more defense and is also heavier. Helms also cannot layer so you can wear a cap and helmet.

2. Hands

3. NOTHING is good against piercing attacks! They will go through platemail like butter! Ignoring that, Chainmail is just a lighter, less defensive, version of platemail that can layer. Even if Peircing attacks were balanced it has peircing defense no greater or less then any other armor of the same defense.
-Also Chainmail... Proper chainmail... Is good against Peircing attacks historically speaking. Though this is apperantly up for debate.
--Also this is subject to change. Currently piercing weapons are very elite weapons... The reason Spears arn't downright destroyers of all is due to their tendency to get stuck very easily. (Crossbows, which are rapid fire in Dwarf Fortress, don't have to worry about that)... That AND ranged weapons, if I can remember correctly, cannot be dodged and can barely be defended against.
---Note: Reading the Wiki I see that its block is segregated between two values... One COULD be for range... OR another area of the body. Hardly matters since even Artifact armor can have trouble blocking crossbows/Arrows/darts/tacks/pointysticks

4. currently no. This is as I said... subject to change.

What makes you think chainmail will or won't be good against piercing attacks? You seem awfully confident about that, especially considering how different the next version will actually be. Just because piercing attacks are/might be too strong now doesn't necessarily mean they will be in the next version.

[Mel_Vixen]

To quote myself:

: Your weapon needs an certain force and crossection if you want to break throught thick plating. An Platebreaker ("Panzerbrecher"/"Panzerstecher"/"Miséricorde") the ancestor of the latter Stillet had an triangular or sometime rectangular crossection and to get through think plates you had to use both hands.

This weapons were wonderfull against normal Chainmail to cause they were pionty as an needle and could by this lodge into one ring and break it from the inside while being pressed deeper in the flesh of an victim. They were poor cutting weapons on the other hand which was an mayor problemm against unarmored troops like light infantary.

This Sting/pierce weapons looked like this:

[Greiger]

Just like to note that ranged attacks CAN be dodged, I've done it before with high skill wrestlers in adventure mode against crossbows, and my sig proves it can be done with thrown objects.

And although this I have less experience with (I prefer multigrasp weapons so my shield is often thrown at the first thing I encounter) I hear that shields are also very effective against crossbows.

The only thing is that even average crossbow users fire so rapidly, that yer usually trying to evade 3 or 4 bolts per move, when it already requires a large amount of skill to avoid. Chances are one of those will hit, and it seems that injuries adversely effect yer ability to avoid them even more.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gamelog that shows what I mean
You jump away from The flying *®*Mithril bolt*¯*!
The flying *Mithril bolt* strikes You in the lower body!
The shot glances away.
The flying *®*Mithril bolt*¯* strikes You in the left wing!
It is mangled!
The *®*Mithril bolt*¯* has lodged firmly in the wound!
You begin sneaking.

[Footkerchief]

Just like to note that ranged attacks CAN be dodged, I've done it before with high skill wrestlers in adventure mode against crossbows, and my sig proves it can be done with thrown objects.

They can also be batted out of the air, which makes you feel like a tremendous badass the first time you do it.

[Neonivek]

"What makes you think chainmail will or won't be good against piercing attacks? You seem awfully confident about that, especially considering how different the next version will actually be. Just because piercing attacks are/might be too strong now doesn't necessarily mean they will be in the next version"

I know that the next version will make Peircing weapons a bit weaker and very possibly make armor much more effective against ranged attacks.

I havn't heard word from Toady on any changes in armor so I have no idea what dirrection armor will be taken.

As for will... I know it will... Crossbow bolts may be effective straight up against chainmail... but Arrows (specifically Broadhead) can block arrow rain confidently. I have no idea exactly HOW effective Chainmail is against arrows is other then a 100 unit Calvalry equipped with Chainmail (not plate) was able to defeat over a thousand units who rained so many arrows on them that they all had at least 20 arrows on their back... or something like that... Happened during the Crusades. (Early Crusades... around the time of the People's Army)

So I have no idea how Toady is going to simulate fine peircing being effective against Chainmail but Broad Peircing being much less so.

On a side note just in case of misunderstanding: I hope everyone knows that proper Chainmail is layered and can get quite thick (Then again... most Heavy Armor is as well)... a single layer of chain armor is a form of light armor. You would think more people would know... but you would be surprised.

The only thing is that even average crossbow users fire so rapidly

I guess I just have a lot of bad luck... Crossbow/bow men tend to either miss entirely or hit me (sometimes with a lucky block here and there at insane block levels) yet Melee units, no matter how numberous or surrounded I am, are easy peasy. Though it doesn't surprise me, I have freek luck (not good or bad... Freek) and usually get a criticle hit on myself first strike (or rather... Disable a limb or strike an organ first hit... Oddly I get murdered even as characters without organs... hense "Freek luck")

I hear that shields are also very effective against crossbows

Not quite... You heard equipping 20 shields in one hand and getting to "Legendary" shield user is effective against crossbows... Or something along those lines. They arn't reliable enough to be what Id consider to be "Effective"

[Rockphed]

Not quite... You heard equipping 20 shields in one hand and getting to "Legendary" shield user is effective against crossbows... Or something along those lines. They arn't reliable enough to be what Id consider to be "Effective"

Getting to legendary in Shields, even without 20 of them, is enough to block most incoming missiles.  On the other hand, I once had a legendary shield user get his eye shot out in fortress mode, so it isn't a sure thing.

[Neonivek]

Not quite... You heard equipping 20 shields in one hand and getting to "Legendary" shield user is effective against crossbows... Or something along those lines. They arn't reliable enough to be what Id consider to be "Effective"

Getting to legendary in Shields, even without 20 of them, is enough to block most incoming missiles.  On the other hand, I once had a legendary shield user get his eye shot out in fortress mode, so it isn't a sure thing.

I once had two legendary sheild using dwarves (With Wrestling skillz!) shot to death... so... It isn't a sure thing... they didn't really survive past the second volly.

[umiman]

The randomness of the current battle system really can't be said about the next version, which is practically completely and totally different in every way save the text. So says the devlogs.

I've had crazy superdwarf dwarves dodge 200 arrows with nothing but the clothes on their backs while some HFS armoured beserker dwarves get struck and killed by one kobold arrow. It all depends on your luck, as it is that is.

[Captain Mayday]

Not quite... You heard equipping 20 shields in one hand and getting to "Legendary" shield user is effective against crossbows... Or something along those lines. They arn't reliable enough to be what Id consider to be "Effective"

Getting to legendary in Shields, even without 20 of them, is enough to block most incoming missiles.  On the other hand, I once had a legendary shield user get his eye shot out in fortress mode, so it isn't a sure thing.

I once had two legendary sheild using dwarves (With Wrestling skillz!) shot to death... so... It isn't a sure thing... they didn't really survive past the second volly.

Just the other day I was watching my Nist Akathian warriors stand cool under a hail of goblin bolts. Calmly loading their crossbows and shooting the goblins with horrific accuracy.

[Akroma]

the soldiers of nist akath don't count, they are way beyond dwarven

[Tormy]

You see Platemail was efective aigainst crossbows and if you still dont believe me here an Picture of an platemeil wich got tested against an crossbow:

I thought that everyone knows this already...
So yeah ranged units should be quite useless vs. heavily armored units...of course there must be a chance [this should be based on the skill with the given weapon perhaps] that they hit an unarmored part of the body with the arrow/bolt.

[Neonivek]

"I thought that everyone knows this already"

Well there are several reasons why people do not (Note: These probably arn't accurate...)
1) The difference between modern variations and past: One person thought Arrow would peirce through chainmail (or platemail) when he used a modern bow and arrow... which was leaps and bounds better then anything in the past
2) The Difference between a dirrect lucky shot and arc shots: One person though Platemail was useless against crossbows because of platemail that had got peirced. An angle of difference or a meter of extra range and it wouldn't have happened.
3) The misunderstanding of the function and purpose of chainmail: Enough said...

"of course there must be a chance [this should be based on the skill with the given weapon perhaps] that they hit an unarmored part of the body with the arrow/bolt"

Perhaps, though Heavy Armors other then chain and plate start to wear away quickly after being struck (It is why Chain is so good). They also have chances to peirce through the armor itself at a close range with proper equipment.

Also the spaces between armor weren't armorless most of the time... just less armored (For example Chainmail or thinner plate)... though there were some genuin gaps in armor since there weren't a whole lot of standards back them.

Well I better get working on the peircing and bashing suggestions for Toady