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[JoRo]

So much new stuff!  This is going to be the best release ever.

Perhaps once you reach Superdwarvenly Empathetic you will be able to read minds.  Perfect Intuition will naturally allow you to predict the future.

We're going to need some interface change if all 19 attributes are going to be visible in fort mode.  I guess another page accessible from 'v'iew?

[penguinofhonor]

Toady, I don't think that musical ability should be an attribute. It should be a skill tied to the creativity attribute.

[G-Flex]

I guess a better explanation would be nice, but honestly I think I agree. I'm not sure what "musicality" would cover when Creativity is already there as a general attribute, and the actual playing of music would/should be a learned skill.

[Toady One]

Musicality is an intrinsic understanding of those sorts of things.  There will be several skills when the time comes (particular instruments, categories of instruments, singing, rhythm [which could also come up with dancing], etc.).  Enough of what I read suggested that it deserved its own spot, but of course there are going to be issues.  I'd personally be all for splitting up analytical ability into a few more, as the current setup doesn't account for all the mathematicians I've met, but any system is going to have splits and joins that don't cover everything or cover too much.

[Demonic Gophers]

Toady, I don't think that musical ability should be an attribute. It should be a skill tied to the creativity attribute.

Someone can be a gifted musician, but a very poor composer.  I can see why those two are separate.

I would interpret Perfect Intuition more as being able to pick up skills with incredible speed, and easily understanding how things work, rather than predicting the future.  Of course, understanding how things work would make it easier to guess about the future, but you'd still need something to work with.

I'm curious about the four unarmed skills.  Dodging was mentioned, and I expect one is related to things like locking joints and throwing enemies... or perhaps those are separate?

[Silleh Boy]

I'm curious about the four unarmed skills.  Dodging was mentioned, and I expect one is related to things like locking joints and throwing enemies... or perhaps those are separate?

Dodging, Striking, Grappling and Throwing, maybe. or maybe throwing will not be one of them, as it's already a skill in another area, and instead it'll be a skill for escaping holds.
That's what i've guessed they may encompass, though i could easily be wrong.

Dodging becoming its own skill is definately a welcome thing, however you look at it.
I did sometimes wonder how tied into wrestling dodging really was, though.

[Duke 2.0]

 How I understand the four unarmed stats:
 Unarmed combat. Fists, bites, feet. Possibly wrestling.
 Dodging.
 Grabbing things, and possibly the more complex wrestling moves like take-downs and throws.
 Improvised weapons. Need that skill for beating things down with pants.

 Hurah for new adventurers made with perfect dodging and unarmed combat. A perfect monk character.

[Silleh Boy]

Improvised weapons, yeah, i should have thought of that possibility.

I wonder if this means somewhere down the line though, that we can get a raw file full of unarmed attacks, and the skill levels/body parts required, before people start to do execute them, thus removing the need for multiple attacks from a creatures raws. of course, this'd have to be limited to intelligent creatures, as awsome as it'd be for a bear to headbutt your woodcutter, suplex your metal smith and lariet your mayor, before stealing your booze.

[Philosophical Gamer]

I would hope that you could train dwarves to be submission specialists, with skills such as the arm bar and the rear naked choke.  Especially considering the dwarven definition for empathy.  It's good that beds are designate-able as a barracks for all that training they'll have to do.

[Roundabout Lout]

I wonder if this means somewhere down the line though, that we can get a raw file full of unarmed attacks, and the skill levels/body parts required, before people start to do execute them.

Yes, if unarmed moves require a certain skill level, then we won't need to worry about getting Chuck Norris'd by children. I like that.

[G-Flex]

Toady: I understand what you mean about musicality. It makes more sense to me now, I think.


Speaking of unarmed combat, here's what I'm wondering: If wrestlers end up using multiple offensive skills and other military units continue to use only one, will that result in problems/balance issues with skills? I guess it depends on what those skills are and how they're used.

[penguinofhonor]

I see the whole music stat thing. Maybe there could be several groupings of skills. Creativity would include musicality, artistry, something involving writing, and stuff like that. It would make sense, considering that the new stat system seems to have been put in place to make things more specific.

I am also interested in these new unarmed combat skills. Will dodging train when you're fighting with weapons? Will basic wrestling boost the other unarmed skills a bit to keep it useful to train your soldiers in wrestling first? Maybe dodging would train slower if you had a weapon to focus on.

[Neonivek]

Musicality is an intrinsic understanding of those sorts of things.  There will be several skills when the time comes (particular instruments, categories of instruments, singing, rhythm [which could also come up with dancing], etc.).  Enough of what I read suggested that it deserved its own spot, but of course there are going to be issues.  I'd personally be all for splitting up analytical ability into a few more, as the current setup doesn't account for all the mathematicians I've met, but any system is going to have splits and joins that don't cover everything or cover too much.

So basically even what we have right now stat wise isn't everything we are going to end up with?

[Toady One]

Well, "stat-wise" it depends on if you include skills.  Atts are a bit preliminary perhaps, and even the listed ones won't be fully implemented for a long while, but I think they have pretty good general coverage.  Skill-wise, we're going to see a lot lot more.  Not so much for this release though, but rather as the specific game elements (like instrument use) come in.

For unarmed, the count is actually five (I hadn't included the unwieldy objects, a skill I haven't named but it seems there should be *something* for that).  Then there's wrestling, dodging, grasp strikes (needs name), stance strikes (needs name, probably kicking).  Breathing fire and bites and so on are awaiting skills that I haven't set up yet.  There are also general skills for melee/ranged combat that pick up some of the slack that used to depend on "level" (counterstrikes, noticing charges, etc.).  Those just need to be handled with the new atts and so on, but there's also something to be said for keeping the new "melee combat" skill, as somebody that has been using a sword and fighting in real fights with it for fifteen years would be able to pick up a spear or a mace and have a real advantage over a completely inexperienced person, and not just because of atts.  As these skills are given names, the melee combat skill might fade out and be removed, but I'm not sure.  There's something to be said for having a skill tree like Armok 1 had, so that say as a simplified example effective_mace=max(mace,sword/3) or effective_mace=max(mace,melee) and that kind of thing, but I just haven't made a final decision on that (what I'm setting up now won't feel it too hard either way if I decide to change later, so I'm not that worried about it, but I'll still have to make up my mind one way or another in a day or two).

[Misterstone]

Toady: I understand what you mean about musicality. It makes more sense to me now, I think.


Speaking of unarmed combat, here's what I'm wondering: If wrestlers end up using multiple offensive skills and other military units continue to use only one, will that result in problems/balance issues with skills? I guess it depends on what those skills are and how they're used.

Eh?  Why should unarmed combat be "balanced" against weapon skills.  Fighting unarmored with your bare hands is always going to put you at a big disadvantage over an armed and armored opponent (unless you are playing a game that involves D 'n D monks or some such silliness, which I guess doesn't really fit with the aesthetic of DF).  In any case, wrestling, boxing, kicking, grappling, joint locks, throwing, takedowns, and all that fun stuff are all good complements to fighting with a weapon (and shield even) and were used quite a bit by armed and armored combatants all over the world.  Have a look here:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/HW-Web.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/G&WinRF.htm



The point of this being, only a whacko would serve as a "soldier" and only fight with his bare hands.  Realistically, wrestling would be used in extenuating circumstances (you don't have a weapon in your hands when attacked), for non-lethal brawling, as an augment for other combat skills, or maybe as a sport.