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Author Topic: The NEW Future of the Fortress  (Read 353546 times)

sneakey pete

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #165 on: October 13, 2008, 07:01:06 am »

Yeah, there will be cumulative effects, so that you can have an actual effect.  Even something like a swarm of vicious biting insects causing real trouble for your adventurer in a marsh or something should be possible through the system.  Again, it'll be a matter of feel here, with some missteps likely, hopefully with amusing results.

Something makes me think that we're going to get legends out of the next releases that make carp look relatively mundane. (i'm thinking a couple of groundhogs killing people, or something, perhaps...)
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #166 on: October 13, 2008, 09:24:22 am »

"I am speaking for The Hats of Sitting.  Thank you for your offer of service.
Our people have been tormented by a fearsome foe.
Flamebroiled the Halls of Screaming is the kitchen just to the north.
Seek this place and kill Ifin Bloodjuices the Stickiness of Statues the phantom spider.
Knowing no mercy, Ifin has killed twenty-three, among them my mother!"

yeah, some of those are going to be strange.
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Koji

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2008, 06:32:41 pm »

Quote
At the same time, if that's all you've got in significant numbers, you should be able to do it, maybe with some backlash among those dwarves with the "values tradition" personality facet, especially if you have proper weapons available.

Is anyone else getting Discworld flashbacks?

This could be a really neat aspect of gameplay. A player wants to use some sort of exotic method of doing things that may or may not be better, and his little society has a period of unrest while the dwarves try and figure out whether to accept it or not.
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Toady One

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #168 on: October 13, 2008, 10:46:36 pm »

Choosing quality weapons. I have tens of high quality steel axes lying in my storage while the champions run around with normal iron axes.
Yeah, and of course there's the opposite, which is using sparring weapons instead of *Adamantine Short Sword*s.

Yeah, we're going to go after getting dwarves to have the weapons and armor you want when you want them to have them.  This was originally going to involve assigning squads to groups of weapon racks/armor stands, possibly including training weapons, and other settings, but I haven't settled on anything.  It's still stewing a bit, and is on the list of problems that will be less major problems on the release.

Great to hear you've thought about it.  I was specifically referring to the how the military weapon menu doesn't have options to order units to carry anything but dwarf weapons.  I guess that'll be irrelevant, since I assume the entire military menu system is being rebuilt?

Yeah, that's right.


I've got some pitchable ideas.  For Fortress Mode, the Animal menu could mark animals for Available For Mount in the same way as pets (probably after they've received mount training at a kennel), and the squad or equipment menu could order a unit to Use Mount.  Then they just run off to grab a creature, and from then on they're linked as mounts (and I guess infants?) already do.  It's imprecise and a little clunky, but as functional as it needs to be.

Yeah, I imagine it would go through that menu, if that menu survives.

1. A rider performs most actions based on their on speed, but moves across tiles at the mount's speed.

I think this is already the case -- of course, pretty much all creatures have the same speed, so it doesn't really matter.  When move/attack speeds are split, I can do more with faster animal speeds.  That move/attack split was a combat arc goal.

2. Mounts can be enraged or spooked by training and nearby combat, fighting or running depending on raw tags (probably existing ones).

I wonder which domestic animals spook.  Just animals that are used to be preyed upon and used to being able to run away from it?  Does the herd aspect matter at all?  I usually hear it in terms of cattle stampedes.

3. Attacks made on the rider have a chance to hit the mount, based on size.  (This of course raises questions of barding armor, which I couldn't imagine how to approach.)

There's a giant thread on this, if I remember, complete with pictures of cat armor.

I like to play with a set of Gate Guards - at the moment these are assigned individual positions (which are alcoves in the entrance passages) because I like the idea of bearskin-and-redcoared sentries standing to attention (for game months on end LOL).  At the moment, to achieve this, every alcove needs a pair of one-dwarf squads assigned to it (a Spring/Autumn and a Winter/Summer shift).

It would be nice if the new system went someway to making this easier (perhaps the 'formations' mentioned could mean that a particular squad has multiple position points assigned to it, and fills them as best as it can) but my main worry is that this behaviour won't be b0rkened, since not only is it aesthetically pleasing, it's also very handy as an anti-thief/snatcher technique (I'm not a big fan of traps ATM).

Yeah, one of our initial concerns with going to a system with commanders and their soldiers was that people that are used to using the military system with individual squads (ie a lot of people, because figure out the 'm'ilitary screen is annoying, so people just activate dwarves).  You'll be able to give dwarves individual assignments and positions even within a squad.  The larger squad structure will be more for sieges or larger military matters, as well as for a notion of command and organization and responsibility.  Hopefully most everything that people used to do will still be possible and in fact easier under the new system.
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Mephansteras

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #169 on: October 14, 2008, 12:27:33 am »

I wonder which domestic animals spook.  Just animals that are used to be preyed upon and used to being able to run away from it?  Does the herd aspect matter at all?  I usually hear it in terms of cattle stampedes.

Yeah, pretty much any prey animal can spook. That includes smaller predators, like cats. My cats run from...well, everything. Horses are REALLY prone to spooking. So much so that a plastic bag caught on a branch and flapping in the wind makes even trained riding horses spook a bit. The basic thought process for most prey animals is 'run, then think about it once you're safe'. Better to run from the plastic bag then not run and find out it was a cougar or something.

Of course, war horses can have that trained out of them, but it takes a LOT of effort. Which is why they were so expensive, and only knights and nobility could afford to have them.

If you're touching mounts, perhaps add into the Civilization entry specifically what animals they train as mounts? I could see humans being restricted to just horses, mules, donkeys, camels, and Elephants. While elves would be able to train a large number of animals to be ridden. Then, during trade, you could spend lots of money getting, say, a riding Giant Tiger from the elves.

Hmm...additional thought. In the creature raws, break training up into three tags. [MOUNT], [WAR], [HUNTING]. Mount would let someone ride it and reduce the spookability a bit, war would add damage capabilities and reduce the potential of spooking to nil, and hunting adds in the stealth and speed aspects.
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G-Flex

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #170 on: October 14, 2008, 12:36:55 am »

On that subject, it would be nice to see different animals having different capacity for training/taming by different sentient creatures. For instance, I can see elves training many more animals than dwarves, but dwarves being able to train animals that elves can't, like certain cave critters.

As far as the military is concerned, it would definitely be nice to see armor/weapon racks put to use similarly to boxes and bags, with some sort of squad/individual ownership.

Do you think any changes will be made that cause military dwarves to clean up after themselves a bit more? I seem to remember them leaving their old shoes all over the place...
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SmileyMan

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #171 on: October 14, 2008, 02:14:02 am »

Yeah, one of our initial concerns with going to a system with commanders and their soldiers was that people that are used to using the military system with individual squads (ie a lot of people, because figure out the 'm'ilitary screen is annoying, so people just activate dwarves).  You'll be able to give dwarves individual assignments and positions even within a squad.  The larger squad structure will be more for sieges or larger military matters, as well as for a notion of command and organization and responsibility.  Hopefully most everything that people used to do will still be possible and in fact easier under the new system.
Ooh, sounds lovely!
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Tormy

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #172 on: October 14, 2008, 10:30:01 am »

Yeah, we're going to go after getting dwarves to have the weapons and armor you want when you want them to have them.  This was originally going to involve assigning squads to groups of weapon racks/armor stands, possibly including training weapons, and other settings, but I haven't settled on anything.  It's still stewing a bit, and is on the list of problems that will be less major problems on the release.


Good to hear, the current equipping system is really basic and annoying also.  :)
So basically this suggestion of mine will be implemented "somehow":
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23784.0
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Neonivek

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #173 on: October 14, 2008, 11:07:03 am »

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Of course, war horses can have that trained out of them, but it takes a LOT of effort. Which is why they were so expensive, and only knights and nobility could afford to have them

Well they also eat like a horse, reproduce slowly, and are often put into strict animal husbandry programs. After that Warhorses have a niche market and you often won't sell everyone of them.

Anyhow, I just hope mounts are afraid of things they would be of if they weren't mounts.

It isn't Spooking that you only have to be afraid of: being distracted, Territorial, or hunting can also be problems.

It should be both the trainer, the rider, and possibly the mount's personality.
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MMad

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #174 on: October 14, 2008, 12:45:55 pm »

What about taking mounts inside? Personally I find the idea of my Royal Guard leisurly roaming the corridors and dining halls on horseback silly at best, but YMMV. :) Staircases should probably not be traversable (although I guess all animals can climb them currently - come to think of it, changing this would make animal pits *much* easier), doors could also present obstacles, i.e. having to dismount and lead the mount through.

What effects should traps have on mounted creatures? It would seem reasonable for stonefall traps to have a larger chance of hurting the rider than for example crossbow weapon traps (which I suppose would typically be aimed at dwarven chest/head height), which would be much more likely to hit the mount or at worst the legs of the rider.

In general mounts seem like a pretty messy business. :)
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Sukasa

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #175 on: October 14, 2008, 12:50:12 pm »

sorry for the late post, but this is the DF picture I think tormy was trying to link to (it's 404 on 4chan now).  100% Safe-For-Work:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Neonivek

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #176 on: October 14, 2008, 01:01:10 pm »

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"Staircases should probably not be traversable"

A lot of animals can climb up and down stairs including the larger ones. Splitting animals up into groups that can and ones that cannot would be too much work though as most people don't find out if Elephants can climb up stairs. (I say they can!)
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Tormy

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #177 on: October 14, 2008, 04:05:32 pm »

sorry for the late post, but this is the DF picture I think tormy was trying to link to (it's 404 on 4chan now).  100% Safe-For-Work:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ahah, that's an epic picture Sukasa. I like the text on it  :D
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Sukasa

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #178 on: October 14, 2008, 04:18:25 pm »

BTW, Source is unknown for that picture :/
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PTTG??

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Re: The NEW Future of the Fortress
« Reply #179 on: October 15, 2008, 10:37:23 am »

"...That'll be the last category of changes, and then the idea is to go back and get everything finished up. That will take a while of course, a long while, and there will likely be countdowns again. I'm always about the countdowns."

It's the INTERMEDIATE COUNTDOWN!

Yeah, passibilty needs a cleanup- animals like cows shouldn't be able to climb what are essentially ladders. That should probably be part of making huge creatures unable to enter 1 tile doors and all the rest of that fun.

Can't wait to see what TO does with the underground! I wonder if we will find such things as a limestone caverns below the plains or chasm-like canyons in the desert.
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