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[perilisk]

How can you have plot armor if adventure mode lacks a plot?

[Chthonic]

Are you talking starting naked (no points assigned to skills)?  'cuz I'm finding that a reasonably skilled axeperson with a couple of points in armor, a couple of points in shield, and a few in wrestling does pretty well . . . I've been finding packs of wolves, giving each a whack or two with the axe, and then wrestling the resulting special-needs class.  Gives you legendary in wrestling in about fifteen minutes tops . . . just about what you need to last about two minutes before a humiliating defeat at the hands of a demon.  Fun!

[Sean Mirrsen]

Plot armour is one of the names. PC (player character) armor sounds better in this regard, and most games, even outright realistic ones, are eager to grant it to the player. RPGs are the foremost user of PC armour, though lately it is more frequently used on PC sidekicks. For example, in Mass Effect, it is impossible for a party member to die, unless it's to further the plot, and once the player prevails, the sidekicks come to life, despite being hit by an anti-tank round and stomped on by a giant spiderbot a minute earlier.

[Anu Necunoscut]

Plot armour is one of the names. PC (player character) armor sounds better in this regard, and most games, even outright realistic ones, are eager to grant it to the player. RPGs are the foremost user of PC armour, though lately it is more frequently used on PC sidekicks. For example, in Mass Effect, it is impossible for a party member to die, unless it's to further the plot, and once the player prevails, the sidekicks come to life, despite being hit by an anti-tank round and stomped on by a giant spiderbot a minute earlier.

I think that's come in because most modern RPGs are about experiencing passive content, not interacting with a challenging environment.  Mostly you're there to see the pretty cutscenes and elaborate art direction--the interaction boils down to playing a homicidal delivery boy (go kill this, go fetch this) to advance the passive, preexisting content of the plot.  If you make that sort of game extremely difficult, players will be annoyed because watching the same exact cut-scene or fighting the same exact monster in the same exact place over and over is dreadfully boring.  Therefore, being easily killable in a game-ending sense can be a problem.  Who would want to trudge through the same 12 hours of preexisting content after losing?  For this reason modern RPG characters in a game that relies heavily on preexisting content are essentially immortal for all purposes other than the plot.

In Rogue-likes, however, the passive content is almost non-existent or procedurally generated, and the robust interactive environment is the star of the show.  Who gives a frig about the Amulet of Yendor, really?  It's about finding new and exciting adventures, and experiencing the variety and depth of interaction.  No two characters will have the same path in the game world, so massive difficulty is less odious.  Does it still need some balancing?  Of course, but I definitely want to throw in against character-coddling, as it makes for boring games that take zero skill or discretion to finish.

Did that make any sense?

[winner]

Plot armour is one of the names. PC (player character) armor sounds better in this regard, and most games, even outright realistic ones, are eager to grant it to the player. RPGs are the foremost user of PC armour, though lately it is more frequently used on PC sidekicks. For example, in Mass Effect, it is impossible for a party member to die, unless it's to further the plot, and once the player prevails, the sidekicks come to life, despite being hit by an anti-tank round and stomped on by a giant spiderbot a minute earlier.

and I remember toady saying that he hated that abstraction

[Neonivek]

The PC is already obsessively strong to the point where if well trained no other character even a bronze collosus with its genes mixed with a Giant Cave Spider can stand up to a hero.

Though I wouldn't mind plot armor existing in the form of protection from Criticles or instant kill effects.

[Deon]

Well, I'd like another solution of insta-death problem (and it's not a problem anyway, it's one of my favourite parts of the game).
I personally detest the "character levels up, danger levels up" system, it kills the feeling of your weakness when you start, and I enjoy this "newbie time" most.
But there may be an init option for less hardcore players.

This suggestion made me think of unmodded Oblivion... Guess what. *censored*

[Zemat]

I think all the problems mentioned can be solved by modding the creatures a little. Adding several new megabeasts with different levels of weakness (semi-giants for example) that have greater frequencies than regular beasts so that they get to be mentioned in quests more often. Also, being more conscious about which quest would you take. Avoiding mostly the "take out this human while surrounded by 100 of his friends" type of quest.

I find it curious that Toady implemented a system where NPC adventurers wont join you until you gain some fame but quest givers don't mind you being completely inexperienced before sending you to kill the mightiest demon of the land.

[Anu Necunoscut]

I completely agree with all who say the solution is more diversity.  More diversity would mean a gentler slope of difficulty, as opposed to the current jarring shift from mind-numbing wildlife grinding -> explode-your-chest-with-one-punch legendary giant packs.  I fully enjoy a world that encourages player creativity to find a satisfying play-style rather than spoon-feeding it to you with preexisting content, but more diversity would definitely result in a smoother and less boring system of advancement.  I imagine this is what Toady plans.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I didn't mean to sound like I support the idea of PC armour. I dislike it, but at times the lack of it is very obvious - like the Operation Flashpoint game. That game's got very brutal realism regarding damage, though it's only weighted hitboxes.

DF doesn't need PC armour. What it needs is more stuff to do without dying.
Weaker mega/semimegabeasts isn't a solution, because they die off during worldgen.
What can be done is adding fed-ex quests that would provide the character with an occupation, and probably have some better (and monetary) rewards for doing them.

[Zemat]

If Toady implements some sort of reproduction for semi and megabeasts (which he will, I recall) then, weak semimegabeasts dying too quick won't be much of a problem. Also, you can set up at which point the worldgen stops if you want to have a enough weak semi and megabeasts to play with.

[Techhead]

Semi-megabeasts are not as much of a problem as they are populous enough to last through world-gen. Whether or not they reproduce is another story, however.

[Granite26]

Using cards instead of dice to round the corners of randomness

It's a question of whether missing the orc 20 times in a row once every 4000 fights is a problem

[Neonivek]

IGNORING ALL POSTS BUT THE FIRST ONE

I have to somewhat disagree with the idea of adding plot armor for a few fundemental reasons which I shall give perhaps point form.

-As an adventurer you already have access to skill levels and equipment that far outshines most other creatures as well you can gain strength, speed, and endurance beyond the real life maximum. Artifacts, when other races finally get them, will also have access to magical artifacts with possible bonuses.
-The issue is that Adventure mode REALLY REALLY needs some better entry level quests and things for you to do especially if you want to do something other then fight wolves with full armor on.

However mind you... I am not against giving all Adventurer characters bonuses that ordinary creatures do not have access to. So giving all starting adventurers an invisable stat that makes them a tad harder to kill I have no problem with. It however should be an edge but not an overwhelming advantage. So I guess I agree with you in the idea of Plot Armor... though it isn't really what I call plot armor...

Along with this I do see a problem with longevity. With wounds becoming more realistic I don't want adventure mode to become just another Roguelike where your hoping you live but really not having too much to do with success, fighting enemies and hoping their stick isn't coated with poison or hoping that you have just a few more turns until your wound becomes infected. Adventurers need to have access to abilities and equipment to let them live even if it wouldn't be accessable to other characters such as in Fortress mode or just military soldiers.

[madrain]

I find it curious that Toady implemented a system where NPC adventurers wont join you until you gain some fame but quest givers don't mind you being completely inexperienced before sending you to kill the mightiest demon of the land.

Sure, why not?  Why would you hang around with some stranger who was like, hey come help me do this thing?  It doesn't make any sense - although retainers you could hire might be nice.  But quest givers saying, hey kid, go kill that demon?  It's no skin off their backs if you don't succeed.. maybe the kid will tire out the demon so that the real champ will have an easier fight.  And if you do succeed, well, that's just cherry.