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[Zonk]

Variuous Ideas:

Titan Broad Swords and Titans:At the moment,Titans have a little
problem with their "Titan"Broad Sword...it's VERY easy for them to
loose them when they get hit...much easier than an human with an
"human"broad sword...i think this should be fixed.

Movement speed(and burden)should affect energy.
For example,sprinting should make you consume a LOT OF ENERGY.

Also "normal"fighting should be tiring(Example:Human vs human,both
humans should tire)
Putting more force in your blows should make you tire faster.
Maybe at the beggining of game the force of your blows is NOT
to the max...putting the force at the max is considered "Berserker"

Currently,when you reach the LIMIT of the world you just have an
invisible sky-blue wall that blocks you...
it would be cool if there was no limit(if the current world was round
like Earth)

I think tails could be used in stances(SOME types of tails).
Some animals use their tails to balance themselves.

A question:What is the "3d models"release supposed to do?
3d models allow us to see VISUALLY when our hero loses a limb,right?
(If the hero loses a leg the player figure would be a one/three legged
creature)

Also,i cannot put the fullscren mode because it says my videocard
and resolution do not allow it..i mean i can USE the fullscren mode,
but the game is NOT in fullscreen...

[Toady One]

The titan broad sword problem is a little tricky.  In real life, the strength of creatures increases with their cross section (2D), while mass increases with volume (3D).  For this reason, ants can lift objects 20 times their body weight, and a human has no chance of doing so.  Thus, if we modeled things accurately, a titan would probably not be able to even lift a titan broad sword.  These calculations are what make them drop the swords when they strike with them.  However, this is kind of lame from a "is the game fun?" standpoint.  I'm not sure what to do about it.  Titan broad swords also become damaged too easily -- that's a different problem I need to fix.

Movement speed affects energy already -- because energy was turned off this was impossible to see.  It is in the next version.  I hope it isn't too drastic.  Same goes for fighting...  except for the force part -- that's a good point.  I'll put something like that in when I fix the force slider calculations.

The limits of the world are just set up the easy way right now.  It would be very tricky to make the world a sphere, just because it is impossible to tile a sphere evenly with squares, so the current map storage system wouldn't work.  Making the world a torus or a cylinder would be easier  When I set up the universe/world parameters generator, the limits of the world could be any sort of thing -- just a mist that you walk into to go to a different world, or a drop-off into the void, whatever.  Making the world round will be much harder.

Yeah, the 3D models release is basically about improving the visual representations of creatures and items.  If you get chopped in half, your picture will change accordingly and so on.

More fullscreen headaches...  uck...  does your video card have a 640x480x32 bit graphics mode?

[Zonk]

Variuous Ideas:

well..i must say this release is KOOL!I like VERY MUCH the fact
that you are making new version VERY fast!
I was also thinking another thing...
there should the possibility to make various attacks with body parts.
For example a titan could use his foot to kick,but also to stomp.

I have noticed an important thing...if your race is,for example,
VERY STRONG but CLUMSY,you start with an High(110-125)Strenght score
and a Low Agility Score(70-80)...i think it should be displayed
in another way..like you should start with "Average"Strenght and
Dexterity because (you said) ATTRIBUTES shown in the status screen
are "SCALED"and RELATIVE.

Also...when the player is very tired,i think he should have "trouble
breathing"

Thinking to time abstraction..if you sleep near the enemy,the enemy
should kill you istantly,right?Unless the character is a very light
sleeper.

Also,i think the current Manipulation/pick up interface is VERY GOOD
for mining and cutting trees.
If you have a tree/mineral vein/wall to the north,you could gust
press G,select "The Space To The North"while having selected your
(PICK)AXE in the tool/grasp section.
In the "What do you want to do it" the option "cut it down/dig it"
would then appear.
I must say i think ALMOST any sharp weapon can cut a tree..we will
see this in the "The Game Finally Has Trees"Release("only"5 releases
from this).
Think to it...an halberd could be considered an axe with a LONG
handle...Maybe you could have problems cutting down a *BIG* oak
using your two-handed big sword.

What about more non-standard STOCK RACES FOR TESTING?
They could be used,for example, instead of the boring goblins and
Naked Moled-Dog(i know you like them...but to me they are just
50/110 pounds kg Norway rats!)
Maybe you could add NAGAS:no legs,they crawl on their lower body
...so they are slow but they have FOUR arms!
Or,if the game can handle them,we could have GIANT ANTS(about 750
kg of course with 6 legs and deadly pincer/bite)to test insects...
GIANT ANTS could also be used to test the "castes"system.
And why not GIANT SNAKES(500 kg,no legs/arms)to test teeths,poison
and infra-vision.

Umh...by the way,why did you put this "childrens/parents thing"?
I don't think the game is so "offending"...and im 13 years old :-)
In TV you can see *MUCH* worse(in Italy)

[Denim Sk8r]

Speaking of Titans, I experience a slight inconviences when playing as a titan, particularily when fighting incredibly small foes such as leprachauns. By some fluke of nature they seem to be able to severe of my arm enitirely, due to they're magically extending arms. I am not complaining that they shouldn't be able to reach just that, when my arm is severed, I feel that my revenge should be that of it falling to the ground and crushing about half a dozen of those puny b-stards!

[Toady One]

Zonk:

Well, I'm trying to put the releases out more quickly now -- the next deadline (March 21st) is going to be tight because I had my first real break-out Crawl character yesterday, and it took most of my time.  Level 21, got a Rune, cleared a number of branches...  but now dead    Basically any tool-based or manual activity I add should be covered there.  Short-cut keys (like the current P for pickup) will make common actions less painful.  Today or tomorrow I'm going to expand the manipulation interface to include corpse processing and first aid.

You don't even need a slashing weapon...  a hammer can also do substantial damage to a tree.  When I was fairly young I took a regular hammer and just started pounded on our poor tree .  I basically don't want to have to handle a lot of nasty email -- the disclaimer won't get rid of it, but it might help stop email from the more reasonable senders.  I get enough spam from advertisers as it is.  Specifically, I was inspired at the time by Skeletony's thoughtful commentary about the plight of suburban runaways.  If I were a parent, I'm not sure I'd want to try to explain that to my six-year-old, especially if they like to draw  Also, I remember somebody on Tom Proudfoot's board asked what Natuk would be rated.  If people care about that kind of thing, I think it is fair for them to know in advance exactly what they are getting.  Besides, I think it will be fun to add more and more things to the content list.  It's like another progress meter.

Denim Sk8r:

Yeah, that is annoying isn't it...  Leprechauns probably shouldn't even be able to carry most/any of the current weapons -- I still have to balance some numbers.  As for the hit locations, that will be fixed soon (it's part of The Plan for the 3D models release).

Then you'll only have to worry about your arms when they hack off enough of your toes to make you fall over.

He he he...  I hadn't considered sever-smashing midget opponents with your own limbs...  hopefully that will just be a beneficial artifact of the projectile system when I get to it...

Back to work, if I can avoid Dungeon Crawl...

[SkeleTony]

"Thoughtful commentary about the plight of suburban runaways"?!?

I said that?!?!?

...Damn!

BTW Tarn,you seem to know a bit about evolutionary biology and such...I was just wondering what your background (if any) in this stuff was.I mean do you study or teach comparative anatomy or what?

[Denim Sk8r]

good, so I will have my dieing revenge against my deviously migitized foes

[Toady One]

I just read a lot of biology books.  Great stuff.

One of my roommates has been smoking inside again...  headache...  I hope I still get something done today, although I feel like total crap.

[Toady One]

Well, it hasn't been a complete loss.  Especially with the help of my compact-yet-powerful Honeywell fan to air this place out.

I've done the minor changes that I'm doing for this version (lemmesee...  changed energy system, changed how messages are handled between turn-based and real time, maybe fixed that real-time button problem, and unconsciousness abstraction).

Now I just need to finish corpse processing and first aid before midnight tomorrow (Pacific!).  He he he.  Maybe it's possible...

[SkeleTony]

Yeah,I hear you about the smoking thing.I quit smoking about 3 years or so ago and ever since then I have become very sensitive to cigarette smoke(marijuana smoke doesn't seem to bother me though but I don't have time for that stuff either anymore  .I can't even stand being in the same house where someone is smoking unless they are doing it near an open window(which sucks here in WA. because it gets pretty cold sometimes).
I only started looking into evolutionary stuff becasue I would constantly get into debates with certain types of creationists who seemed to display a knack for misunderstanding and misrepresenting science and I wanted to be able to counter at least SOME of the more ridiculous claims.Not that I know much or retain much of what I learn but hey...

[Demon]

When the "Mayhem Visits the Quaint Thrope" release comes out will you be able to inteact with shop owners/ merchants?  Or will we have to wait until the "Starting to Look like a Game" release?  When will currancy be thrown in?

Can pirates have pet birds that wrestle their way onto your shoulder??  Denim Sk8r brought up that a leprechaun pirate could be carried around by his bird! (Then you could get those damned titans in the eye!)

Denim Sk8r and I also think that gravity is more important than stuckins.  Actually, I think youre putting way too much emphasis on the whole stuckin thing.  A skilled warrior isnt likely to accidently loose his weapon in someones guts...

[Toady One]

You'll definitely be able to interact with the merchants, it just won't be with the full conversation engine that I'm putting in later.  I'm not sure if currency is going in at that time or not -- it depends on how many other things get slated for that version.  Merchants might just give things away for a while  

Many people probably take riding horses for granted but it is exactly as much work as what you described.  Once people can ride horses, there will automatically be all kinds of creepy permutations.  I'm not sure when I'm putting that in...  it has to be after wrestling though, or maybe before.  I'd have to think about it to see which one follows naturally after the other.  They're almost the same thing.  You could start a riding interaction with a horse, and if it is ill-natured, it might take it as a wrestling interaction and perform a throw  

Hey, there aren't a lot of skilled warriors around.  Right now it's just a lot of frightened townspeople being harassed by the insane player.  A stuck-in is not necessarily a lose-your-weapon kind of deal.  Any time you get a really solid thrusting strike, it is briefly a stuck in -- it might not be lodged very solidly, but you do have to pull the weapon out (the player can mostly ignore this since it would be annoying to have to take the weapon out after every attack).  However, if your weapon is in an opponent, you'll have the option to cruelly twist it.

Gravity is more important than stuck-ins, sure.  Are you worried about the list ordering?  Clothing is more important than magic, but magic is the first one on the list, because Somebody wanted to blow things up.  The reason for the current ordering (stuck-ins before gravity) is the following:

Stuck-ins
Missile Weapons

That is also the primary reason for stuck-ins.  Missile weapons cannot be satisfying without them.  A skilled swordsman might not get his or her weapon stuck often, but an archer intends it.  I think it would be lame if arrows just bounced off or disappeared in the first missile weapons release.

I'd better get programming if I want to release today.  50/50 chance of me making it I think, if things go smoothly.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Demon]

Well, I see your point about missile weapons...  But what I'm saying is that the whole "pulling/ pushing someone onto a corspe with a weapon stuck in it"  is a bit much for now...

And magic is the lifeblood of a fantasy setting!  Clothing is more insignificant than freakin magic!  Do you know what healing/body detonation is going to do to the caster yet?  Or will the first magic release also have random components?  ie, my caster looses blood, and the next random magic art makes you fatigued..?

[Toady One]

But the 3D models will look so Shameful without clothing!

I snuck something into the plan a while ago (these are snippets from different releases):

|Ground Debris of All Kinds (rocks, twigs, worms, beetles, ants, etc.)
|Work magic into everything

With the first magic release, I think I'm going to have random casting costs, including reagents that are gleaned from both ground debris and corpse processing.  I imagine that in releases after that a lot of work will go into making reagent collection less annoying  :roll:

I can't believe the depths that rec.games.roguelike.development has sunk to.  Roguelike developers are yelling at each other and being completely uncivilized.  I didn't know there were so many long-standing feuds between these people.

[Zonk]

VERY COOL!IM TRYING THE NEW VERSION!

I also have other things to say:

I don't think if my video card mode is 640x480x32,but i tried every
resolution.
I have a max of 16 milion colors(24 bit) and 1280 x 1024 pixels.
But fullscren is not the most important thing...

I think we should have parrying/blocking/dodging preferences.
For example,a player could choose always keep his
weapon/hands high to parry/block blows to the head.

Also,dexterity and some mental attributes should affect
picking up/changing stance.This might regolate scenarios
like "slide down on knees and hack through horses legs ".

A *BIIIIIIGGGGGGG* BUG!
I played a titan,and made by best to GET KILLED by a group
of patchy mans.Then i went here as a patchy man...i MANAGED
TO LIFT THE 30 MEGAGRAMS TITAN BODY!Of course i lost my
grasp after a few moves...but i lost no "extra energy"
from carrying a such heavy item!
By the way: 1 Megragram(MG) = 1000 kg = 2200 pounds,right?

3d models also allow riding,right?Because we could see the player
figure above the horse figure...um...thinking..why only
horses for riding?I think as stock "standard riding"creatures
we should have also camels,mules,donkeys,elephants,zebras,big boars
and a lot of other things...
Thinking to it...ALMOST every creature should be ridable...
Even bipeds.We could also have horses changing their stance
to stand on two foot/hooves and making the rider fall:good for
rodeos!

What about "charges"when we had stuck-ins and horns?
Immagine a bull/unicorn charging you and getting stuck in the wall
of an house with!Then you could kill him easily(for the bull,the
unicorn can still rear-kick pretty strong i think)

A new cheater-option:
"SURVIVER"mode.
With this option,the player cannot die or go unconsciuous,but when
he gets mutilated,the wound closes immediately...
So could play an human who is crawling on the ground because is
arms/legs have been eaten by a giant dragon...a very sad
end,i must say...

Some other "Various and Sundry Combat Scenarios"for the combat
future page:

grabbing tail(similar tu grabbing hair i think)but you
could grab a big monster and throw it 100 feet away...
IF you are ***VERY***STRONG.
Think to a titan throwing ice dragons in an human city :-)

Creature beheads other creature with horns on his head.
The other creature head flys and hits the first creature,and
they BOTH die!

Creature grabs another creature body part with one of it's hand
and crushes it

Creature attacks with big weapon,he misses the weapon is stuck on
the ground