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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress 4  (Read 83939 times)

loser

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #300 on: June 11, 2008, 12:05:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Making water soak into the ground would solve the rooftop issue, but then player-controlled water that you want to cover the surface would have troubles -- the core problem is that rain water should be less than 1/7 units, but the game doesn't operate at a finer resolution, and rain is only realized as a flow when it is around the scale of regular water (ie a river).</STRONG>
I'm new to this side of the forum, fairly new to the game, and haven't finished the thread before I made this post.  So I apologize if my response is redundant or obsolete.

Instead of making raindrops fractions of a water unit in the data itself, you can make them fractions in the implementation without changing the memory load of your tiles.  To do this you can use probability to represent your fractions.

Not only would this allow you to break up your raindrops, but it would also allow you to model the tile's ability to soak up water deposited on it.

As a vague example, each raindrop has a 1 in 8 chance of creating a unit of water when it hits a soil tile.  The same raindrop has a 1 in 4 chance of creating a unit of water on a rough stone surface and a 1 in 2 chance of creating a unit of water on a smooth stone surface.

It's a bit more processing, which could be bad if your RNG is heavy, but otherwise requires only a mask, a bit of arithmetic, and a jump.  The same method could be used for the process of melting down metal objects or anywhere else you want results determined by fractions.

EDIT:

Alright, with a reread for comprehension I gather that you may already be doing this.  But the floor tile's static capacity to absorb rain water could still be modeled with an index of various probabilities based on the nature of the floor tile.

Sorry, again.

Anyway, if you don't want the drain-off pools to form puddles could you use a different placing method?

I think you're already modeling surface tension with your pressure functions, but a different model of surface tension here should prevent your blasphemous circular puddles.  

If the tile to which water is to be added has a depth of 1/7 (and maybe 2/7, too) a short list is made of nearby (within 8 or 16 or 32 steps, whatever) tiles that have 0/7 water but are adjacent to tiles with at least 1/7.  The new water is then randomly applied to one of those next-to-wet tiles.  If you could afford to make it really complicated, the probability of water being allocated to on any single tile could be inversely proportional to the number of adjacent tiles with water.

If you wanted the potentially squiggly shapes water flows in to be relatively consistent over time, providing a hint of uneven surfaces not actually present in your data, you could knock together a simple (ie, stupid and fast) RNG yourself and always seed that RNG with the coordinates of the tile receiving the water.  This should lead to puddles forming in the same odd shapes when water is applied from the same runoff.

I suppose once this puddle reaches to a ramp or open-air tile your pressure function would take precedence, somehow.

You know, this is sounding less and less simple than it sounded in my head.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: loser ]

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Dadamh

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #301 on: June 11, 2008, 03:40:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One in the changelog:
<STRONG>PS: Actually, the freezing "bug" could just be my computer feeling the relative change in temperature now that winter is long gone... SpeedFan tells me my processor, which is normally around 70C, is just about ready to boil water when I'm at year 900 on a standard map. What a little worker my laptop is. I should get it some stilts or something before I set my desk on fire.</STRONG>

Climate: Scorching.


However the freezing thing is entirely likely to be related to that.  I've had issues with the heatsink on my processor acting stupid, and it caused  general freezups like the ones you are describing.

I don't have a real solution, though I suppose you could try one of those cooling docks for the laptop, or somesuch.

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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #302 on: June 11, 2008, 05:34:00 pm »

My Videogame consoles used to break and I finally found out it was because it gets rather hot and humid where I left them. So I leave them in the basement and they even work better down there being a rather cool and dry environment.
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Frobozz

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #303 on: June 11, 2008, 05:52:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Sindai:
<STRONG>And Toady said that 70c is idle for him, getting up to the 90s ("hot enough to boil water")during worldgen.

So yeah Toady, heat is almost certainly your problem if those temps are accurate.</STRONG>



Could be. But I somewhat doubt it. Modern processors (especially Intel ones) shouldn't just kill the application like that. If you don't believe me, watch this video review on Tom's Hardware. It clearly shows them removing the heatsink and fan from a Pentium 4 running a game which makes the game come to virtually a stop. But once they replace it, the game starts running again as if nothing happened.

So if Toady has a relatively modern Intel processor there shouldn't be an issue. Of course when I built my last system the settings weren't enabled by default and so I had to go into the BIOS and switch them on. Now the processor idles with a multiplier of 6X and under load automatically goes up to 8X. If it gets hot, it reduces heat by inserting wait cycles in between instructions and reduces the multiplier back to 6X.

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Sindai

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #304 on: June 11, 2008, 06:00:00 pm »

It's not necessarily his CPU that's causing the problem. Could be motherboard chips, could be RAM, could be video, could be something I'm not thinking of.

You actually cut out the most important part of my post, which was where I pointed out that since the freeze locks up the entire computer, it's pretty unlikely to be a bug in DF's code, because bad user-mode code doesn't lock up Windows.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Sindai ]

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Cthulhu

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #305 on: June 11, 2008, 06:09:00 pm »

It's probably his Infotron Converter Chip getting too hot, and coming out of its casing, which can melt the Diskomatic Driving Motor's Internal Resonance Processor.
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JT

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #306 on: June 11, 2008, 06:34:00 pm »

Perhaps he could rig up the deflector array to emit a nadion pulse!


quote:
Sindai wrote:
<STRONG>since the kernel can contain and kill any user-mode process no matter how badly it behaves.</STRONG>

Which fantastic version of Windows is this? =)

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Dasleah

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #307 on: June 11, 2008, 06:43:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by JT:
<STRONG>Perhaps he could rig up the deflector array to emit a nadion pulse!</STRONG>

That'd only work if he reversed the polarity. And even then he runs the risk of the singularity exploding.

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Cthulhu

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #308 on: June 11, 2008, 06:52:00 pm »

I think as long as he makes sure the Zyphon beams don't cross, he should be okay.
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Dadamh

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #309 on: June 11, 2008, 07:14:00 pm »

It's the flux capacitor.  There's no chalk or marble around Toady's place.
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Sindai

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #310 on: June 11, 2008, 08:01:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by JT:
<STRONG>Which fantastic version of Windows is this? =)</STRONG>

All of them since at least 2000.

I'm serious, too. It's just part of good OS design, which Windows has - at least down on the kernel level. It applies to pretty much every other modern one as well. In general the only reasons a modern OS locks up completely are bad device drivers, bad hardware, or bugs in the OS itself.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Sindai ]

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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #311 on: June 11, 2008, 09:11:00 pm »

The poor laptop has always been running hot (been about 3 years now).  According to SpeedFan, the accuracy of which I have no clue about, the hard drive is at this moment running at 45C and the Core is 68C.  I have an AMD Athlon 64 processor, or something.  When I was running world gen with the temperature monitor on, it crept up into the 90s and I stopped it when it hit 97C, which was only after 300 years -- it was freezing around 900, so who knows how hot it was when it was dying.  Yeah, it should have been apparent to me that it was a system issue, but it was always happening after I'd change something dangerous in world gen, so I was tunnel visioning on the bug side of diagnosis.

Importance is currently rated by their highest-ever entity affilitiations, or if they killed somebody important, so you don't get very many critters preserved.  I could throw in some additional factors as well, and I could allow this to be tweaked in the parameters.  This is all on the plate for today.

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Torak

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #312 on: June 11, 2008, 09:28:00 pm »

Couldn't you release the current version to a group and let some people run a worldgen to see if it's just you that it freezes on?
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Lord_Frodo

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #313 on: June 11, 2008, 09:41:00 pm »

The only problem being the tantrum spiral that would result from not being chosen for the honor.
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Qmarx

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #314 on: June 11, 2008, 10:09:00 pm »

Toady, have you tried removing the case?  Or is your tower in one of those wonderfully insulated "PC cabinets".  

My brother had one of the latter, at least until it caused a !!power supply!!.


Or are you using a laptop (in which case, how did you get a model with a numpad?)  In that case, I recommend propping up the back by about an inch on a thick book or something.  It makes the laptop so much cooler. (had the same problem on my thinkpad until I did that.)

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Qmarx ]

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