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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress 4  (Read 83956 times)

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #270 on: June 10, 2008, 12:24:00 pm »

I can't wait until someone uses that painting utility to draw a world that looks like Goatse. Complete with a small string of desert as his ring.

Dadamh

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #271 on: June 10, 2008, 01:14:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by subject name here:
<STRONG>I can't wait until someone uses that painting utility to draw a world that looks like Goatse. Complete with a small string of desert as his ring.</STRONG>


What kind of a craphole fortress would that world make?

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HotSake

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #272 on: June 10, 2008, 01:19:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by subject name here:
<STRONG>I can't wait until someone uses that painting utility to draw a world that looks like Goatse. Complete with a small string of desert as his ring.</STRONG>

...and I suppose a mass of volcanoes in the middle?

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Aquillion

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #273 on: June 10, 2008, 01:31:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Here's a frozen world and the populations.</STRONG>
That's a lot of Goblin fortresses lead by dwarves near the bottom there.
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LSTAR

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #274 on: June 10, 2008, 03:18:00 pm »

Is it just me, or does the "disgusting mess" look a lot like the world map for that Zelda: Oracle of Ages game on the GBC a few years back?
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Tylui

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #275 on: June 10, 2008, 03:59:00 pm »

I... Am so happy!

The painting utility was literally out of nowhere!  I wasn't expecting it at all.  MESOHAPPY!

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Apegrape

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #276 on: June 10, 2008, 04:12:00 pm »

Yeah, i love the thought of "creating" your own maps. Imagine an island of serene territory inside of a burning, evil wasteland.
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SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #277 on: June 10, 2008, 05:55:00 pm »

As much as I'm going to love being able to create your own worlds, I still think fully randomized ones will be the way to go.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #278 on: June 10, 2008, 07:31:00 pm »

I am with Sir. Penguin on this one.

But then again I am a poor map creator... so that may have changed my answer

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Zemat

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #279 on: June 10, 2008, 07:48:00 pm »

I don't understand Toady's description of the editor. How much can you edit the map? One of my current grips with the world generator is that regardless of the world general shape, individual map cell areas tend to be similar to each other. This is more notable in coastal areas. But I now this has a purpose so I don't complain about it. But I'm wondering if the mad editing changes anything of this at all.

Regarding this. I guess some DFers with an artistic bent will create very cool world maps and share them with the rest of the community. But I will appreciate the world-gen parameter modification more than anything else on this release.

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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #280 on: June 11, 2008, 12:08:00 am »

As i understand it you can change the elevation, temperature, rain and so on much like as you paint in the old "Paint.exe".

You would most likely select a Brush (How big the area you want to change is) and then you select a what you want to change and a Value for it. If you want a want a circular Mountainrange on your map you chose a huge circular Brush, then "elevation" and a "hight". Point with your mouse somewhere and make a click. Result: A circular Mountainrange. Some sort of randomized Algorithm would bring the diversity in the Tiles.

Toady how far can i go down in this editor? Can i for example build a wall or something? And what about roads and Bridges?

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Heph ]

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Faces of Mu

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #281 on: June 11, 2008, 01:35:00 am »

Heyas!

It's been a long time since posting, but I've been reading the dev notes and downloading updates along the way.

A serious way-to-go to Toady for continuing to be so industrious about DF! It always seems like a great work ethic he's got going.

Although I can get "out of the mood" for DF, I am still in love with this game. In regards to the latest developments, I agree with SirPenguin and Neonivek that I will probably still persist with random worlds and not use the custom worlds features. I still don't use the re-randomisers for names and such as I know that whatever name is chosen for me will be coloured by the experience I have in that world rather than what it says (tho I do get a heck of a lot of "Everlasting"s, "Myth"s and "Oracles"s!). My days of Heroes of Might and Magic and Neverwinter Nights have taught me I can get disenchanted with a game once I see how the terrain and environments are actually constructed.
I also feel that such control doesn't really impact on the Dwarf Fortress side of the game anyway. After the first Z release I was a bit frustrated that I wasn't able to predict what a fortress play area would really look like once I had selected it. Now I get a bit of a "buzz" in not knowing, and then getting to know, each new and unique landscape my settlers start in. What I'm saying is that the macro environments don't seem to make obvious changes to the microworlds we play in as settlers or adventurers.
But I suppose I'm talking out my ass given I don't know what's in store with all the other world gen developments Toady has been putting in.    :roll:

What I am REALLY eager to play with is ROADS! I don't play adventure mode much due to getting easily lost and curtailed into mountainous cul-de-sacs and nearly endless ridges. Being able to travel along a road from one town to the next will be amazingly fun, and I know I'm going to feel a lot more connected to a world when I have more points-of-reference from which I can journey out and return to safely.
I've even gone so far as to start creating my own interstate!

Anyhoot, just wanted to login again and put my two cents worth forward.

Cheers!

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Faces of Mu ]

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Patarak

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #282 on: June 11, 2008, 01:55:00 am »

Do entities actually "live" during world generation, or do they just run through the appropriate world-gen procedures and then "spawn" once you begin a game?

Say I have a race with no lungs. Will they die in world generation or will they die seven turns after I begin Adventure Mode?

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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #283 on: June 11, 2008, 05:10:00 am »

As of today, if there are no dwarf civs at all, and you've set it to allow no playable civs, it just won't list the "Dwarf Fortress" option in the title menu for that world.  If all of the dwarf civs are dead, it'll still allow you to play, though I think it might force you to be the first one on the list or something silly the way it's set up.  So, yeah, you can now play a world where the only allowable games are human "play now!" ones, or, if you mod it, you can make a world that only has a Legends mode, if you really want to.

Yeah, you can increase the volcanism field, which sets the frequency of magma features, and you can also set the desired number of visible volcanos.

The Caravan Arc is fighting for its spot vs Presentation stuff and Adventurer Skills I think.  I'm sort of tired of doing just one arc at a time (I've enjoyed doing megabeasts and this parameters stuff more than the armies recently, just because I've been on world gen armies for a while), so the current leaning seems to be a mix of the three aforementioned arcs, though mixing in other stuff is fair game.  We're going to talk about it a bit more once this release is out of the way.

A dark fortress with dwarves and gobs run by gobs has a population mix as the result of kidnapping.  A dwarf fortress with dwarves and gobs run by dwarves has a population mix as a result of both prior kidnappings and dwarven immigration.  Contrary to general player behavior, dwarves tend to be the most lenient with captured populations of any of the critters.  The current human entity has slavers, the elves kill and (currently abstractly) eat their enemies, and goblins make grotesque body sculptures and so on.

If the dwarven leader of a goblin site is part of the goblin culture, they'll act like a goblin, otherwise the goblins will act like dwarves.  It tracks all of their old affiliations, and the strengths of those affiliations, but having them act on those (to throw off the goblin culture, for example) is one of the items on the list I'll likely have to put off until next time.

There was a brief period of time in unreleased land last year where the migrant groups wandering the map could approach your fortress, even if they were elves or humans.  Those have since been removed, but it'll be back sometime.  Ideally, all migrants would come from actual places, though how this would work in certain worlds is a bit iffy.  Perhaps it's not reasonable to expect migrants all the time, though they could always come from wherever your starting dwarves come from, unless those initial dwarves too are picked out from the population.  Their skill sets would have to be handled then (and the point buying system might not be appropriate then, though it would be annoying not to have it).  Still, it would be sort of cool to have a list of dwarves (including retired adventurers) in the current world that are willing to go off on a pioneer settlement journey and you can snatch up some of them and so on.  This has been discussed in various forms and with various takes on how much of the initial journey should be abstracted.  Anyway, stuff to look at.

Yeah, no humans in those frosty biomes -- you could always add additional human entities very simply by adding to the starting biome list (and we plan to do so in the stock raws later on).  Right now, the human civilization is a sort of vague slaving plains-dwelling group with a loose site-based organization.  Ideally, we wouldn't provide more stock raws rather than a framework to generate all the biomes needed of randomized human groups, but more stock groups will be a good stepping stone toward that.

Trees have always burned, though there might have been a hiccup in some of the releases where grass fires didn't burn hot enough for that to happen (this can happen in real-life, but a bug nonetheless).  I think grass fires make trees burn now, but I'm not sure.  Having a thousand degree environment makes trees burn, I'm pretty sure, though in that screenshot, I don't recall if there were trees or if the puffs of smoke were just the random ones that come off burning grass sometimes.

I can't say what happened at Site 76.  Ask the government.

I think the phrase "sum of gravities" is misleading, although that might just be typical jargon for a wider class of algorithms.  As dreiche2 mentioned, clearly something additional is needed if there are two equal positive attractors to your NW and NE, to keep you from just walking up to the midpoint between them and standing there, but interpreted loosely it makes sense.  I can see how this could help you choose a basic direction to look at, for example, and you'd then think a little bit more about precisely what it is you want to do, though yeah, without specifics it isn't that useful.  Perhaps they were in the White Paper -- I saw it before, I think, when somebody linked to Incursion, but the tone put me off.

Biome definitions could be moved into the raws, but as with spheres and other very basic concepts, it invites a lot of trouble, requires quite a bit of rewriting to the point of it just dumping C++ for scripts (though spheres are worse than biomes here, I think), and the gains vs. the work are pretty slight.  If custom fields go in to the raws (the "evil" field is a good candidate for this), then custom biomes start to look more attractive.  As it stands, there isn't much of a point, since the biomes are the biomes, as they correspond to the basic fields, more or less, though you could play around at the fringes of the acceptable values for temperature as we were discussing, I guess.  I'm not sure what you had in mind.

The cave in the east surrounded by a swamp?  I think that was just me meshing with the drainage brush and a lucky cave placement.

As for all the dwarven leaders in goblin civs in the frozen world, yeah, the kidnappers can be so effective that goblins essentially lock themselves out of their own civ.  This'll probably be rebalanced sometime.

The editor just lets you change the six basic fields right now (elev, temp, rain, drainage, savagery, volcanism).  Later, more -- doing midlevel maps and sites would be fine, but I'm nowhere near that yet...  a site editor would probably work best after generation, since it needs a lot of the midlevel information ahead of time.  Some of the similarities between individual cells have been decreased (the 'd' map looks less square now, for example), though there are still a few ramifications I have to deal with there, and it still looks pretty square if you make elevation differences too extreme.

It's true that the current world gen editors and so on don't have much of an impact on fortress mode at this point, but once we get around to sending armies from fortresses and conquering other sites from fortress mode and all of that, the particulars of the surrounding world will be crucial, and I'm sure there's a lot of fun to be had from specific maps as well as randomized ones there.

In general, world generation doesn't check up on a lot of modding issues and so on, so it won't look at missing lungs or anything like that.  Their bodies are used during world gen combats, and their personality settings are used by their rulers.  It calls things up as it needs them, and it assumes you haven't made basic errors, intentional or otherwise.  In addition, aquatic races aren't really supported well at this time.  I'm not sure what they'll do, as far as settlement and roads and all that, since the game makes some calculations according to land mass index.

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Dwarmin

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Re: Future of the Fortress 4
« Reply #284 on: June 11, 2008, 05:21:00 am »

"contrary to general player behavior" Hehehe Thas taken out of context, Dropping captive gobs down 4 level spike pits and then pumping in carp filled water and then pumping in magma is purely self defense.

Didnt see that part about Elves, Now we know how they make Lembas bread.   :eek:

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Dwarmin ]

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