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[PTTG??]

Part of what is causing the odd politics- such as bloodthirsty elves and pacifist goblins- is the fact that the races have conflicting ethics that aren't modeled. I wanted to suggest that a few more tags be added to add these conflicts and ensure that goblins are normally at war with the right groups and aren't living in towers called "The flowery wall of sunshine"

As a side note, perhaps the raws could be a little cleaner if numbers where substituted for the long forms of each severity level- level 2 for capital, level 8 for personal matter, level 1 for torturous execution, level 0 for "the de-booze-ening".

-Damage_Craft: Dwarves have high values for this, as they consider a well-made craft to have especial value, so they might get angry at humans who go and smelt that artifact throne into some basic iron doodads.

-Civil_Freedom: The penalty for taking civil liberties such as speaking against the government- not outright treason. Humans and especially elves have high values for this, and goblins and dwarves are somewhat against it.

-Tree_Protection: Yeah, use this to make goblins/dwarves get angry at elves for interrupting the march of progress.

-Baby_Snatching: shouldn't everybody get angry about that, anyway?

-Civil_Suppression: the opposite of the freedom one. This allows dwarves and elves to agree that the goblins are being too suppressive.

-Territory_Violation: allows civs to be upset at others crowding in- this would kind of force the nations to keep from stacking up in the corner.

-Personal_Freedom: does this civ enforce morality rules? Have forced religion? Have more oppressive laws than just against political speach?

[Mephansteras]

I'd also like to see some sort of War glory ethics in place. Something to make certain cultures, like Goblins, have a higher chance to declare war then other races. This would be especially useful in getting Goblins to fight each other, which you'd think would be in character for them.

In addition, I'd like to see all of these ethics be replaced with a system more like personality. Have things be on more of a sliding scale, so that the game can have humans who are ok with slavery, and ones that aren't. Dwarves that are into harsh punishments, and ones that aren't.

For example, Dwarves could have
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:0:5:10]
   [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:0:20:50]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:100:100:100]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:100:100:100]
   [ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:100:100:100]

Where 0 is Capital Punishment/Unthinkable and 100 is Acceptable. We could have Human civs who are more like the Elves and respect animals, and ones who are ok with Killing in general. Maybe weird ones where killing enemies is fine, but innocent animals is a major crime. In any case, it'd make things more interesting and allow for much more variety in the world.

It'd also get the humans killing each other more, and maybe even inter-elf or inter-dwarf wars. It'd be nice to differentiate between ENTITY and CIV, so that you can have groups that will gladly kill someone of another nation, but won't try to kill thier own people.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

For example, Dwarves could have
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:0:5:10]
   [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:0:20:50]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:100:100:100]
   [ETHIC:KILL_ANIMAL:100:100:100]
   [ETHIC:KILL_PLANT:100:100:100]

I think it would be better in this way:

[ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:PUNISH_CAPITAL:5:PUNISH_EXILE:2:JUSTIFIED_IF_GOOD_REASON:1]
....
[ETHIC:SLAVERY:ACCEPTABLE:1: JUSTIFIED_IF_GOOD_REASON: 2:JUSTIFIED_IF_EXTREME_REASON:3:SHUN:2:PUNISH_EXILE:10:UNTHINKABLE:20]
....   

This numbers are weighted chances.

[Deon]

Well, you still can skip words in token and make it [ETHIC:KILL_ENTITY_MEMBER:5:2:1]

[thvaz]

These are really good sugestions. I hink more varied civilizations of the same race are very true to the spirit of the game. Write in the Subject "Toady, read this thread!"

[Mephansteras]

Toady reads all the suggestions.

Another though I had on how to make goblins a little more warlike was to add a level beyond ACCEPTABLE. Something like DESIRED or ENCOURAGED. So, while everyone is fine with killing enemies, goblins WANT to, and actively make enemies to go fight if they haven't had a war in a while.

[perilisk]

As far as ethical things to fight over:
Kidnapping (goblins)
Slavery (humans)
Stealing (kobolds)
Looting corpses in the middle of battle (dwarves)
Cannibalism (elves)
Chopping down too many trees: Everyone but elves.
Interfering with our trade: Everyone but humans.

I do like that races are moving toward having good and bad sides.
* Humans (will) take slaves, and cash rules everything around them.
* Goblins kidnap, and seem to behave as though might makes right (thus explaining why mighty demons tend to rule them). But on the other hand, they tolerate very diverse societies (which also helps explain why demons are allowed to rule them).
* Elves are inimical to progress and are ravenous zerg-like cannibals.
* Dwarves beat their wives if they someone breaks something they built, and they're all born alcoholics.
* Kobolds are thieves who annoy the other races. There is no good side.

[MMad]

I'm not sure I think "personal freedom" and "civil suppression" are concepts that make sense (or would even be recognized) in a medievalish fantasy world. Minor historical exceptions aside, these are very much modern concepts and starkly at odds with anything associated with monarchy and feudalism.

[PTTG??]

I'm not sure I think "personal freedom" and "civil suppression" are concepts that make sense (or would even be recognized) in a medievalish fantasy world. Minor historical exceptions aside, these are very much modern concepts and starkly at odds with anything associated with monarchy and feudalism.

True to some extent, but on the other hand, those ideas are often present in fantasy writing- there are always places where the king is kind and wise and the people are free. Those are the places that get attacked by the hordes of orks or goblins.

[thvaz]

This suggestion is awesome, don't let this thread die.

[Neoskel]

This suggestion is awesome, don't let this thread die.

This made me think of people in surgeon's gowns with defibrillators shouting BUMP! instead of CLEAR!. 

[SwiftSpear]

I'd tend to prefer more general ethical groupings... IE, specific civilizations (as opposed to full races) have various attributes they weigh with various strenghts.  A life worshiping human civ might get more mad about tree stuff then a water worshipping elf civ.  A less kidnappy goblin empire might be less unpopular in general then a more kidnappy empire.  different civilizations might have strong propensities to war (blood & death worshipers).  Sure, there should/would still be racial traits, but EVERY diplomatic relationship shouldn't be dominated by racial characteristics, it would make world history get very boring and predictable really fast.

I like the religion system that toady has been implementing so far... with different fields of worship bringing about different relational aspects.  Sure, it's far from fully comprehensive, there's lots of cultural things that could also be done, but at least it's not predictable to the point of frustration.

Realistically... my hunch is that fiction artists working with fantasy universes more laid out racial tensions the way they did just for story consistency.  Goblins are demonized, so they hate/attack everyone and vice versa, even though that racial characteristic probably isn't very feasible for a real evolution produced species.

[thvaz]

Well, by now all the human civilizations are more or less the same. Implementing this suggestion (Ethical tags varied per civilizations as personality is varied for individuals) would make them distinct.

This could be expanded to religions - why all the humans and dwarves are polytheistic? Maybe early in their history the humans were dominated by a demon. Maybe the elves didn't found a Force of Nature, and instead descended into worshipping various gods. Maybe those goblins didn't ever meet a demon, and instead remained atheistic...
I modded Tentacle Demons as an alternative goblin ruler for the goblins to worship different spheres than the usual fire, death, torture.

[Granite26]

I'd tend to prefer more general ethical groupings...

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=3322.0

This has some of the stuff you're looking for in it, in terms of civ vs race