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[Andir]

Can I get a 1 layer map dump of a Dystopian Rhetoric tiled game please?  I only see the tileset images all over and I haven't seen an actual map using these tiles.  I'd like to be able to see walls, beds, trees, etc if at all possible.  The only thing I can tell form the wiki tileset image is the look of the creatures, but I'm assuming he added tiles for the more in-organic features of the game as well?  A simple ESC, Export map, and pick a layer should export the image as a BMP, compress it using the compression utility in the DF Folder and post it somewhere...  (If you can upload an uncompressed that would be better, but they are pretty huge if you have a big map.)

[ivegotgoodabs]

just install it already. if you don't like it, get rid of it.

[Andir]

just install it already. if you don't like it, get rid of it.

The lack of responses for people wanting to "sell" their preferred tileset would lead me to the conclusion that it must not be that good.  I figured that I was not alone in wanting to SEE what something looked like before spending time downloading, editing the files, copying them and renaming things to try to get it to work.  Oh well.

[Deon]

The only thing I can tell form the wiki tileset image is the look of the creatures

No.
There're 2 kinds of tileset.
Character set = a look of all characters (beds, walls, letters etc.).
Graphic set = a look of the creatures.

just install it already. if you don't like it, get rid of it.

The lack of responses for people wanting to "sell" their preferred tileset would lead me to the conclusion that it must not be that good.  I figured that I was not alone in wanting to SEE what something looked like before spending time downloading, editing the files, copying them and renaming things to try to get it to work.  Oh well.

Also I'd like to say that it takes 15-30 sec. to try a tileset so sometimes IMO it's easier to try to make it by yourself than to spend a lot of time waiting for an answer while you could just try.

[Andir]

That would explain why the current instructions around the forum don't work to set tilesets... because all the tiles are in separate files instead of being in one nice easy to configure tileset.  I mean seriously, was it easier to program two different loading functions to load in character sets and tilesets instead of just having one tileset load?

The amount of redundant work this game does baffles my mind.

[Deon]

Man, can't you understand such a simple thing?
The Character Set = what is used as "tiles" for ascii-display.
And graphic sets = pseudographics painted in bmp and converted someway to be used with opengl.
Ascii symbols are not tied to anything, while pseudographics are tied to certain objects.
Consider it like character set = humans and graphic sets = uniforms for specific jobs.
I bet you don't swear at god for not enabling these uniforms inside humans for them to use specific jobs without making new clothes?

And basically, if you count there're 256 character tiles which replace some of already pre-existent encoding which is already in your system.
While creature tiles = totally different thing which is no way related to your keyboard and language.

Also forum instructions and wiki instruction work great, I don't know what you're stumbled upon. Ask if you have difficulties.

[Andir]

Man, can't you understand such a simple thing?
The Character Set = what is used as "tiles" for ascii-display.
And graphic sets = pseudographics painted in bmp and converted someway to be used with opengl.
Ascii symbols are not tied to anything, while pseudographics are tied to certain objects.
Consider it like character set = humans and graphic sets = uniforms for specific jobs.
I bet you don't swear at god for not enabling these uniforms inside humans for them to use specific jobs without making new clothes?

And basically, if you count there're 256 character tiles which replace some of already pre-existent encoding which is already in your system.
While creature tiles = totally different thing which is no way related to your keyboard and language.

Also forum instructions and wiki instruction work great, I don't know what you're stumbled upon. Ask if you have difficulties.

It's not such a simple thing.  If I look at my old MikeMayday version of 38b, there are 4 different icon files  in the raw\graphics\example folder.  I also attempted to download one of the character sets from the wiki page and put it in my init.txt (Moons_square_16x16.PNG if it matters) and it seems that the DF client can't load PNG files... why the bmp isn't up there I'll never know.  So I opened it in Paint.NET, saved it as a BMP and DF STILL doesn't load.  It just comes up to a blank black application that you can't exit without end tasking it.  What's the bit depth we are supposed to be saving it as?  I could choose 8-bit or 24-bit... does it matter?

It's not "such a simple thing" as you suggest.  My game literally won't load with these tiles so I can see what these things look like.

[Andir]

On top of that, there's some kind of "language mod" that allows you to "fix" the tiles replacing characters problem?

Oh, simple this is not.

[Benny]

I also attempted to download one of the character sets from the wiki page and put it in my init.txt (Moons_square_16x16.PNG if it matters) and it seems that the DF client can't load PNG files... why the bmp isn't up there I'll never know

a .bmp file is uncompressed and as such is a larger file to host on the internet than a compressed file (such as a .jpg or a .png) which can also keep the same quality. trying drawing something in paint as a bmp and then saving it as a .png and you'll see the size difference

were the internet entirely compromised of .bmp's I think we would have grew bored of it long ago

also bear in mind that your currently using alpha stage software and as such features are constantly being added so some things atm are quite complex. Installing tilesets and altering init.txt files are a cake walk compared to mastering Dwarf Fortress itself

In regards to the language mod as well, thats come around as a limitation of the way that DF displays everything (There being only a limited number of characters available to display things with) and until the Presentation Arc has been completed or even touched on its not something that will change

If all of this ircs you then I'd stick with ASCII tbh, theres no changes needed on your behalf and you won't have to worry about half your dwarves having levers in their names or bridges that have a rogue chair symbol at the end

[Andir]

a .bmp file is uncompressed and as such is a larger file to host on the internet than a compressed file (such as a .jpg or a .png) which can also keep the same quality. trying drawing something in paint as a bmp and then saving it as a .png and you'll see the size difference

were the internet entirely compromised of .bmp's I think we would have grew bored of it long ago

also bear in mind that your currently using alpha stage software and as such features are constantly being added so some things atm are quite complex. Installing tilesets and altering init.txt files are a cake walk compared to mastering Dwarf Fortress itself

In regards to the language mod as well, thats come around as a limitation of the way that DF displays everything (There being only a limited number of characters available to display things with) and until the Presentation Arc has been completed or even touched on its not something that will change

If all of this ircs you then I'd stick with ASCII tbh, theres no changes needed on your behalf and you won't have to worry about half your dwarves having levers in their names or bridges that have a rogue chair symbol at the end

Please don't talk down to me like I'm a moron just as Deon has done.  I am a professional developer working with designers writing training applications for a fortune 500 company for a living.  I know what bmps, jpgs and pngs are.  I also know that bitmaps have headers that tell the program what format the data contained is.  What I find difficult is:
1.  The import procedures used by Toady apparently doesn't read standard BMP file headers and makes assumptions that your file is in 24-bit color depth.
2.  That tiles are separated into 2 or more files when all the tiles could easily be placed in one file for easy import and user management.
3.  The wiki, where common folks would look for tilesets, has PNG files for download as the tilesets (which DF doesn't import apparently and absolutely bombs by not displaying anything, error or otherwise.)
4.  The tilesets don't all have preview shots so the common user can see them in action
5.  The developer adds support for caves and islands instead of improving the already lackluster interface
6.  Using the client in ASCII mode.  You can't tell what the hell is going on with "D"s running around and "+" like symbols used for doors.  It doesn't even look like a door.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Ah, we have one of the "new-generation" crowd here. This here is an ASCII game akin to a roguelike, and it will probably stay that way for quite a while.

If you find ASCII graphics and a lackluster interface at the same time too difficult, I suggest you play ADOM (Ancient Domains of Mystery) to understand roguelike graphics, and Battlecruiser Millenium to understand what is a lackluster interface.
This is not a joke, and in no way an insult. If playing the game as it is is too difficult, you should either try to overcome the difficulties (which you are trying to do, but rather too feebly in my opinion), or find a lesser challenge to accustom yourself.
Having played both ADOM and BCM, I could easily get over the graphics and interface of DF. Both are great games, in their own right.

But more to the point. Yes, this game has certain limitations on how it accepts the data you present to it. If you must know, the textures for the recent Supreme Commander RTS must be square DXT1 .dds for one layer, and square DXT3 .dds for other layers of every unit's texture. DF is in no way too demanding.

[Andir]

If you must know, the textures for the recent Supreme Commander RTS must be square DXT1 .dds for one layer, and square DXT3 .dds for other layers of every unit's texture. DF is in no way too demanding.

For the record though, I would still consider DF more restrictive since you also have to have the bmp for "built objects" in a particular color depth and format that is also square and a certain size.  BMP files are well known formats and checking a header file on import isn't all that hard.  I haven't done any editing in SC though, so I can't be certain, but I'm guessing it either runs or errors and doesn't sit at a black screen on load if you have the wrong texture.

And also, I'm not here to adventure... I tried it and never went back.  The fortress mode however is easier to work with since all the controls are on the screen for the most part.  Personally, I could care less if DF had adventure mode and any history or army arcs.  It's all pointless when fending off goblins and dragons in fortress mode which is why I'm here.  The fortress mode just needs a kick in the pants GUI and graphics update and it could be an actual marketable product.  I've been pitching the idea of interface APIs for a while now so those of us interested in building fortresses could have a halfway decent "god game" and the rougelike proponents can still have their ASCII "clunky" interface if they really want it to walk around in.

[Deon]

a .bmp file is uncompressed and as such is a larger file to host on the internet than a compressed file (such as a .jpg or a .png) which can also keep the same quality. trying drawing something in paint as a bmp and then saving it as a .png and you'll see the size difference

were the internet entirely compromised of .bmp's I think we would have grew bored of it long ago

also bear in mind that your currently using alpha stage software and as such features are constantly being added so some things atm are quite complex. Installing tilesets and altering init.txt files are a cake walk compared to mastering Dwarf Fortress itself

In regards to the language mod as well, thats come around as a limitation of the way that DF displays everything (There being only a limited number of characters available to display things with) and until the Presentation Arc has been completed or even touched on its not something that will change

If all of this ircs you then I'd stick with ASCII tbh, theres no changes needed on your behalf and you won't have to worry about half your dwarves having levers in their names or bridges that have a rogue chair symbol at the end

Please don't talk down to me like I'm a moron just as Deon has done.  I am a professional developer working with designers writing training applications for a fortune 500 company for a living.  I know what bmps, jpgs and pngs are.  I also know that bitmaps have headers that tell the program what format the data contained is.  What I find difficult is:
1.  The import procedures used by Toady apparently doesn't read standard BMP file headers and makes assumptions that your file is in 24-bit color depth.
2.  That tiles are separated into 2 or more files when all the tiles could easily be placed in one file for easy import and user management.
3.  The wiki, where common folks would look for tilesets, has PNG files for download as the tilesets (which DF doesn't import apparently and absolutely bombs by not displaying anything, error or otherwise.)
4.  The tilesets don't all have preview shots so the common user can see them in action
5.  The developer adds support for caves and islands instead of improving the already lackluster interface
6.  Using the client in ASCII mode.  You can't tell what the hell is going on with "D"s running around and "+" like symbols used for doors.  It doesn't even look like a door.

I didn't talk to you like to a moron, I tried to make everything clear to avoid new questions to things I already told.
The main point I tried to give you is that the game is basically totally ASCII and avaliability of graphic tiles is only a "gift" from Toady to us to play with, it's not a full-supported feature and you may consider it as a side feature which is currently at alpha stage.

I, personally, like how it's implemented.

If you're a professional developer, you should know that you can download a png with ANY browser directly as 24bit bmp without any conversion and it works.
And also sorry for being too detailed "like for a moron", no insult here, it's just a bit strange for me that a man who's a developer for a huge company can't deal with a few raws in .txt files while I did it easily just looking into something which is already done. Maybe I should try to work as a developer in a huge company too?

And

It's not such a simple thing.  If I look at my old MikeMayday version of 38b, there are 4 different icon files  in the raw\graphics\example folder

And if you look A BIT further you'll see that these files are referenced to in graphics_example.txt in a VERY easy way (size of tiles in pixels, number of tiles in file x:y), I guess it's not harder than to write an A+B=C application in Pascal. Just use a common sense.
So there could be 4, 10, 100 or 1 bmp file, you decide it by yourself.

And don't think that we're trying to insult you or to show you who's kung-fu is better, we're trying to help you, and your words are at least impolite if you speaked this way.

2Sean

... wAll of tExt
DF is in no way too demanding.

And if you look into Civ4 of Sid Meier there's a very HUGE problem with civilization flag. Even the application! which you use to make those alphas matters, some side programs give strange results because of the way they compress image to .dds (while they make appropriate dds files for icons, only flags are broken), I don't comment that it should be DXT1 and with a special (undocumented) limitation on the file size =).

[Andir]

If you're a professional developer, you should know that you can download a png with ANY browser directly as 24bit bmp without any conversion and it works.
And also sorry for being too detailed "like for a moron", no insult here, it's just a bit strange for me that a man who's a developer for a huge company can't deal with a few raws in .txt files while I did it easily just looking into something which is already done. Maybe I should try to work as a developer in a huge company too?

1.  Open Firefox.  Browse to the wiki.  Right click on an image and hit save image as.  Drop down the File type.  Do you see BMP in there?  Nope.  Point proven.
2.  Nothing in the raw files makes it evident where the data is coming from.  It's pretty unclear that you'd have to go into "example_graphics" or "raw\graphics\example" (example, as in... for reference... not used) to get actual "production graphics".  It is also pretty unclear that the "inanimate icons" are stored in data\art and the actor icons are stored in a completely different folder.  Point proven.
3.  Again, quit being elitist and or condescending about my occupation.  I find it offensive that you'd point at that and have some sort of chuckle out of it.  I stated it for reference to my experience in relating to training and user experiences.  I deal with user experience issues all day long and different data formats.  If I told one of my designers to import their graphics into my application and it failed horribly, they'd be all down my back.  Nothing about these raw files are in any way intuitive.  (See above point.)

And if you look A BIT further you'll see that these files are referenced to in graphics_example.txt in a VERY easy way (size of tiles in pixels, number of tiles in file x:y), I guess it's not harder than to write an A+B=C application in Pascal. Just use a common sense.
So there could be 4, 10, 100 or 1 bmp file, you decide it by yourself.

And don't think that we're trying to insult you or to show you who's kung-fu is better, we're trying to help you, and your words are at least impolite if you speaked this way.

Again, graphics_EXAMPLE is in no way indicative of production/release use and a common user trying to update their tiles wouldn't know that this indeed is what the game uses and not an EXAMPLE of what to do.  My first assumption was that the EXAMPLE file needed to be renamed to graphics.txt to be used in the live environment.  I don't see how the layout of the file even makes it "clear" to someone that this file is being utilized so I don't understand why you'd go into a lengthy discussion on it other than to inflate something.

[ivegotgoodabs]

The reason toady is so inefficient and weird with his coding is because
1: he's not a professional. He's almost entirely self-taught,  I think.
2: dwarf fortress is in a public alpha at the moment. most, though maybe not all of it's shortcomings will eventually be fixed. In the mean time, you just have to deal with what's there.