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[Mipe]

Thanks, I've experimented with the values and now have a better idea of what works and what doesn't. Custom tailoring new worlds is a fun experience!

[RedKing]

Has Toady ever stated what order the worldgen variables are applied? (like elevation, then rainfall, then drainage, etc.)

I've tried doing a series of tests to isolate each variable and determine its effects (and hopefully generate images to put together a world-builder's guide), but not knowing the procedural order is a bitch.

It appears the order is something like:

Elevation
Temperature
Rainfall
Drainage

But it seems like maybe it goes back and does a second pass, wherein rainfall modifies temperature, or recalculates after erosion changes elevation maybe? I've tried doing flat or minimally elevated maps, with everything else configured so that it should be either a gradient or a single value across the map, but when I generate the relevant temp/rainfall/etc maps, they're not the nice predictable maps that I'm expecting.

[Grimlocke]

Generated something interesting, a 33x33 world with 4 islands, each island bordering its own edge of the map.

The north one only has gobbos and a demon (used to have humans, but not for long)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

10: Lasutkutsmob, "Torchmenaces", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Incest of Patterning, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Nightmare of Noiselessness, goblins
   Leader: Ngoso Poisonmaligned the Evaporated Weaver-Risk of Elbows, goblin
   5 goblins
   1 demon

Somehow theres still a bunch of humans in the ruined town.

9: Udakunod, "Hipscoop", a town
   130 humans

The east only has elfs (yak!)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8: Narenamave, "Furtouched", a forest retreat
   Owner: The Tulips of Carnage, elves
   Parent Civ: The Distant Pine, elves
   Leader: Sethe Beancouncils, elf
   36 elves

The south has only humans.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

12: Kafekuse, "Typhoonact", a town
   Owner: The Stern Society, humans
   Parent Civ: The Geared Empire, humans
   Leader: Doce Crittertwinkled, human
   133 humans

The west has 2 dwarf forts.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

11: Urol•nul, "Closemirrors", a mountain fortress
   Owner: The Crafts of Portent, dwarves
   Parent Civ: The Umbral Sabre, dwarves
   Leader: Lorbam Walledheathers, dwarf
   22 dwarves

7: AtĦrromlam, "Dyecloaks", a mountain fortress <-- worldgen hermit fort! The dragon kept menacing this one, but he didnt kill the lor of them. Not sure why its like this.
   Owner: The Ardent Arena, dwarves
   Parent Civ: The Glad Merchants, dwarves
   1 dwarf

The dragon was killed by some gobbo somewhere after 500, total waste

Image:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Params:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:grims isles]
   [SEED:2312051201]
   [HISTORY_SEED:1912568896]
   [NAME_SEED:4191557679]
   [DIM:33:33]
   [END_YEAR:1000]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:1000:-1]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:1:400:400:400]
   [RAINFALL:0:100:50:50]
   [TEMPERATURE:0:100:50:50]
   [DRAINAGE:0:100:50:50]
   [VOLCANISM:50:100:1600:1600]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:1600:1600]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:3:10:0:0:0:2]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:14:2:0:0:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:3:0:1:0:6]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:2:4:2:1]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:0:0:0:6]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:3:4:0:0:0:16]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:40:80:120]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:20:80:240]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:4]
   [OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:10]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:0]
   [RIVER_MINS:0:0]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:250]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:500]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:4]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:2]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_RIVER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_PIPE:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_CHASM:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_PIT:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_OTHER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:6]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:-1]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]

I think its a pretty funny world, so I thought id post it for people to see/use it for whatever.

Also, on the subject of the post above, I think Toady once talked about the geographical part of worldgen in either DFtalk 3 or 4. maybe 2... I dont remember, using the transscripts would probabaly be a quick way to find out.

[CobaltKobold]

any kobolds?

[Grimlocke]

Hehe, unfortunately not. I put in some caves, but no kobolds ever got generated. Guess a 33x33 can only support so much. Altering the number of caves might work, maybe with trying some different history seeds. Assuming those alter initial civ placement.

[RedKing]

Heh...I'll have to play around with that one to see what effects a 1-man civilization has on gameplay.

As far as the chat logs, yeah I've looked through a fair chunk of that, especially the Gamasutra interview, but I haven't seen anything confirming or denying if there's any kind of back-looping in the worldgen procedure that would explain the kind of anomalies I see. In theory, a world with zero X/Y variance in elevation, temperature, rainfall and drainage should produce a single terrain type across the entire map (in actuality, it produces infinite rejects unless you turn them off...DF does not like single-elevation maps).

[Grimlocke]

I think what you are seeing might be 'do orographic precipation and rain shadows'.

Spoiler: this one illustrates it rather well (click to show/hide)

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:RAWR]
   [DIM:33:33]
   [END_YEAR:1000]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:1000:-1]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:100:100:0:0]
   [RAINFALL:25:25:0:0]
   [TEMPERATURE:60:60:1600:1600]
   [DRAINAGE:25:25:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM:100:100:0:0]
   [SAVAGERY:0:0:0:0]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:10:0:0:0:2]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:14:2:0:0:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:3:0:1:0:6]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:8:0:4:0:8]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:0:0:0:6]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:4:0:0:0:16]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:0]
   [OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:200]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:0]
   [RIVER_MINS:0:0]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:0]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:250]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:500]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:0]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:12]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_RIVER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_PIPE:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_CHASM:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_PIT:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_OTHER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:12]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:-1]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:0]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]

The map is first generated as 1 flat homogenous region, it then puts in volcanoes which cause a sharp elevation. The rainshadow reduces rainfall west of the mountain with an amouth depending in its elevation.

Turning rainshadows off will give you a world with a big grassland, volcanoes, some low mountains where the volcanoes cluster. No variation in rainfall.

Removing volcanoes will prove that flat-elevated world ARE very much possible, even one consisting of only 1 region. And that you can even have civs on it, albeit only humans and elves (I tried to get kobolds to spawn in the caves, but they dont seem to like my worlds)


EDIT:

Spoiler: turns out you can make even rather interesting worlds with only 1 elevation, temperature and drainage (click to show/hide)

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:drought]
   [DIM:33:33]
   [END_YEAR:1000]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:1000:-1]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:220:220:0:0]
   [RAINFALL:0:20:80:240]
   [TEMPERATURE:120:120:1600:1600]
   [DRAINAGE:0:0:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM:75:100:40:10]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:40:200]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:0:0:0:0:0]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:3:16:0:4:0:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:0:0:0:0:0]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:0:0:0:1:0]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:3:1:4:3:2:1]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:2:1:0:4:0:16]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:0:0:0]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:140:60:0]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:0]
   [OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:80]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:0]
   [RIVER_MINS:0:0]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:400]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:500]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:48]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:12]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_RIVER:0]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_PIPE:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_CHASM:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_PIT:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_OTHER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:12]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:-1]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]

Also the most dry world I ever made. No aquifers, no river, no lakes, no oceans, not even any underground rivers! The only water in the whole world is in underground pools, and possibly some in aboveground murky pools.

[BloodBeard]

I've had this site for quite a while but I don't think i'll ever be using it. It's the most jammed-packed site for it's size that i've ever seen.

Within a 2x5 area it has an underground pool, HFS, 1 tile underground river, 2 tile chasm, bottomless pit, magma pipe (named volcano), magma chamber, sand and trees (no flux unfortunately). If you're willing to cut out the underground pool and magma chamber (keeping the magma pipe) you can squeeze the rest into a 2x3 site.

There are 29 z-levels aboveground including the sky, it's about the same in the 2x3 version I think.

Here's the seed:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Created in DF v0.28.181.40d.

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:MEDIUM]
   [SEED:2395824031]
   [DIM:129:129]
   [END_YEAR:1050]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:200:1]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:1:400:401:401]
   [RAINFALL:0:100:200:200]
   [TEMPERATURE:25:75:200:200]
   [DRAINAGE:0:100:200:200]
   [VOLCANISM:0:100:200:200]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:200:200]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:4:2:1:1:1:1]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:25:251:503]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:25:251:503]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:12]
   [OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:1]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:50]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:260:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:260:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:1040:3:3]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:2080:2:2]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:1000:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:2080:3:3]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:2080:3:3]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:250]
   [RIVER_MINS:100:100]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:2750]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:25]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:50]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_RIVER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_POOL:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_M_PIPE:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_CHASM:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_PIT:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_OTHER:2]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:20]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:20000]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:2080:2080:2080]
   [RAIN_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:2080:4160:2080]

And a screenshot:

[CobaltKobold]

I've had this site for quite a while but I don't think i'll ever be using it. It's the most jammed-packed site for it's size that i've ever seen.

Within a 2x5 area it has an underground pool, HFS, 1 tile underground river, 2 tile chasm, bottomless pit, magma pipe (named volcano), magma chamber, sand and trees (no flux unfortunately). If you're willing to cut out the underground pool and magma chamber (keeping the magma pipe) you can squeeze the rest into a 2x3 site.

There are 29 z-levels aboveground including the sky, it's about the same in the 2x3 version I think.

Here's the seed:

...Well, not 3x3 but you got near beating the Leaderboard... Ma'or props.

[BloodBeard]

I actually got that site beat within a 2x3 area. In addition to 5 features (tying the leader), my site has sand, trees, and you don't need Embark Anywhere to use it (his area is in the middle of a mountain?).

Neat.

[Iapetus]

bla

Done all this. Hundreds of rejections, getting nowhere. :\ Rejections seem to crop up after setting the temperature.

Turn off all the minimum this and that surface parameters, check if the generator has enough room to place caves, rivers, volcanoes and mountain peaks.

Also, I found that raising minimum volcanism to 50 doesnt remove all flux/magnetite/other non-ignious stuff,including bauxite.

For use or reference, or whatever you like, the param set i used for my last world.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]


[WORLD_GEN]
[TITLE:Fiery deathly 129x129]
[DIM:129:129]
[END_YEAR:800]
[BEAST_END_YEAR:2:-1]
[REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
[CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:1]
[ELEVATION:1:400:1600:1600]
[RAINFALL:0:100:200:200]
[TEMPERATURE:-40:140:100:10]
[DRAINAGE:0:100:200:200]
[VOLCANISM:50:100:1600:1600]
[SAVAGERY:0:100:1600:1600]
[ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:5:8:0:0:14:6]
[RAIN_FREQUENCY:4:14:4:0:1:6]
[DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:3:8:2:0:2:8]
[TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:3:4:1:3:1:4]
[SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:5:2:1:0:2:8]
[VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:5:1:0:0:0:100]
[GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:3000:3000:0]
[EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:500:500:6000]
[PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:80]
[OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
[VOLCANO_MIN:200]
[REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
[REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
[EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:0]
[RIVER_MINS:400:400]
[PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:0]
[OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
[SUBREGION_MAX:5000]
[CAVE_MIN_SIZE:80]
[CAVE_MAX_SIZE:120]
[MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:100]
[NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:20]
[ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:1]
[SHOW_EMBARK_RIVER:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_POOL:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_M_POOL:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_M_PIPE:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_CHASM:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_PIT:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_OTHER:2]
[SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
[TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:40]
[TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:-1]
[PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
[ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
[RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
[DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
[SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
[VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]

Sites with both magma and non-igneous layers (the ones with tons of ores) arnt that hard to find with it.

I just created a world using those settings.

I checked the history (historical figures), and found loads of records of mermaids/mermen attacking various groups, killing people, eating animals, razing hovels, etc. 

Is this normal, or has something been corrupted somewhere?

(Or have the merfolk been provoked to this by all the threads on farming and butchering them?)


Edited:

Turns out it was my fault for messing up a new creature type I'd created earlier.  I'd copied the goblin entry in the creature_standard file, but forgot to change the [GOBLIN] tag, which seems to have messed up what creatures got used for which entities. 

Unfortunately this also made the game unstable.  Shame, as I'd quite liked the idea of rampaging carnivorous mermaid megabeasts, cities founded by kobolds, unicorn adventurers, and all the other weirdness it caused.

[Grimlocke]

Hahaha, revenge of the mermaids!

When I read that I allmost though 'awesome, didnt even notice that myself!' but soon I realised that mermaids razing hovels isnt realy suppost to happen.

It would be quite a funny mod though, carp-like merpeople that spring from rivers, killing, razing and stealing everything.

I immagine adding [SEMIMEGABEAST] and [AMPHEBIOUS] along with upping the populations, birth rate, attack strength and putting in river biomes could go a long way.

[Mipe]

Murlocs.

[Iapetus]

Murlocs.

I have infact got the murloc mod included in my raws at the moment, as well as as an ogre civ, a second (tougher) type of human, and druchii (they the ones that messed up the raws).  I've embarked on a site that contains a Joyous Wilds biome, and a Terrifying ocean, and a volcano, which contains fire and magma men, skeletal fire imps and OMG TWO PAGES WORTH OF MURLOCKS ARE SWARMING MY FORTRESS!

[RAM]

I don't suppose you feel like sharing the save?