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Author Topic: Crafting: Time vs. Quality  (Read 2260 times)

Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2008, 05:33:34 pm »

Dwarves= artsy? Since WHEN? I've yet to see ONE book or myth, or ANYTHING that would suggest that THEY are the artsy ones. Elves on the other hand, that is a whole different story.
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2008, 05:38:22 pm »

Quote
Dwarves= artsy? Since WHEN? I've yet to see ONE book or myth, or ANYTHING that would suggest that THEY are the artsy ones

The Dwarf Fortress versions are Artsy... (Also DF Goblins are not Tolkien Goblins)

-they will go insane, litterally, if anyone destroys a masterpeice, even if they don't own it
-their whole family could die infront of them, yet a stream of well made objects that they don't own can cheer them up to the point where it could be the most happy day of their life
-They once in a while go on a long quest to develop their Magnus Opex sacrificing everything to create it... in which they will no matter how little skill they have... if they cannot make it they simply go mad
-While they may dislike being chained up... They enjoy being chained up with high quality (or worth) Chains
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 05:45:23 pm by Neonivek »
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 05:46:48 pm »

1)That has nothing to do with art, that has to do with the fact that they put a lot of work into something and it was just destroyed.

2)The happiness system is currently flawed, the one surviving dwarf of a tantrum spiral killing everyone can be happy because the dining room is pretty.

3)One would imagine this practice stems from all most artifacts are made by dwarves in myths/books/games/movies. HOWEVER, the artifacts are usually something useful, like a magic scepter, a magic sword, some sort of armor, etc;
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Cog - He's the new Urist.
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It could be worse, that cat could be alive.

Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2008, 05:48:50 pm »

Quote
1)That has nothing to do with art, that has to do with the fact that they put a lot of work into something and it was just destroyed

They put a lot of work into everything... a Masterwork takes as long to create as a fine object

"2)The happiness system is currently flawed, the one surviving dwarf of a tantrum spiral killing everyone can be happy because the dining room is pretty"

Doesn't change the fact that objects make them happy with simply their presence. Even if it stopped being able to turn around tragic events it is still one of the major contributors to Dwarven happyness
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 05:50:33 pm by Neonivek »
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2008, 05:50:02 pm »

No, not at all, masterwork takes LONGER because you obviously need to work on it more.
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Cog - He's the new Urist.
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It could be worse, that cat could be alive.

Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2008, 05:53:15 pm »

Quote
No, not at all, masterwork takes LONGER because you obviously need to work on it more

"Dwarves" take the same amount of time... they don't stall when turning out a masterpeice.

Note: I hope this doesn't become heated... Nothing personal right?
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Granite26

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2008, 05:55:41 pm »

define artsy, then?

Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2008, 05:57:09 pm »

The fact of the matter is, there is not one source of any mytholigcal dwarves  being 'artsy' in the way of anything other than blacksmithing. And even then, any REASONABLE dwarf(Barring nobles, obviously) would see the importance of churning out shittastic swords for a rag tag militia rather than taking his sweet ass time on a nice sword when the goblins come a-knockin'
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Cog - He's the new Urist.
Yes they are a bunch of drunken unstable retards, but they're MY drunken unstable retards, and I will take care of them.
It could be worse, that cat could be alive.

slMagnvox

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2008, 06:00:41 pm »

Hasn't this exact thread and every idea in it already occurred, or I am I having deja vu again?

At least twice before, hah.  And many of these arguements are startlingly similar.

My stance, I haven't voiced an opinion on the subject yet, dwarves oughta strive for quality and since all mountainhome industries are hand crafts, a legendary stone crafter is going to make exceptional toy hammers no matter what.  It'd be an immposibility to ask him for a low quality craft, he could make it simply, quickly, slowly or embellished and it'd still be exceptional and the economy is going to place a much higher value on his work.

Thus, everything dwarves make is kind of like artwork.  With naturally masterpieces being the top tier (well, artifacts on tip top).  Imagine asking after a low quality Picasso.  Or hell, imagine the price tag on a low quality Jackson Pollock.  Hah, Obviously its not a matter of quality, paint splatters can't exactly be quantified can they?  Ratings on items are more based on what other dwarves consider them to be worth.  With the intersection of form and function occuring in weapons and armor and other functional items.  Either way it is regarded, for its balance or its artistic lines, a masterwork battleaxe cuts exactly well as it costs.
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2008, 06:25:54 pm »

Quote
The fact of the matter is, there is not one source of any mytholigcal dwarves 

Stop thinking Mythology and start thinking Dwarf Fortress... DF Dwarves are different...

There weren't any mythological source where Elves were ANYTHING like they are in Dwarf Fortress... Heck most Elves in mythology were evil beings! rather then nature huggers.
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Stromko

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2008, 06:27:52 pm »

I think a lot of the arguments become moot if quality-vs-time becomes something defined from the manager. Then it's not the craftsdwarf deciding to churn out cheap stuff, it's the manager saying "Do this fast or else." or, "The King needs the best stuff, take your time!". I'm still not sure if there's a point as far as speed goes, a highly skilled dwarf will spend maybe a couple ticks in the workshop and twenty or so hauling the goods in from a nearby stockpile, so there's no expediency benefit, so I suppose the only point is to reduce quality.

On the other hand it might be simpler if it just wasn't necessary from a gameplay / theme perspective. Thematically we can assume that every dwarf is always trying to create a masterwork item, but there's just no reasonable way to skip a step. A masterwork item isn't a result of extra work, it's pure luck of how a chisel chips away at stone; the only extra work that improves say, a stone mug is lodging gems and precious metals into it. So, telling a legendary dwarf to work faster isn't really possible, the only effective thing would be telling them to do deliberately shoddy work; no crafter worth their salt would do that, dwarf or no.

From a gameplay perspective, we could start by making craftsdwarves not care so much about their own masterwork items and works if they have a lot of them already, so we don't have to worry about defending every one of 200 masterwork items from being stolen by kobolds or having a very valuable dwarf go insane. This might make things a bit easier because it would lessen the difficulty of keeping legendary crafters happy.

Introducing a more freely sliding scale to the /value/ of such items, however, would shore up the difficulty. The hundredth masterwork slate mug will be worth perhaps 1/10th as much as the first, with correspondingly less value for lesser grade crafts. Value for each civilization would be determined by how many the caravans have already acquired, determined each time they bring the goods back to their native civilization. The value of the goods inside your fort will be based on how many are in your stockpiles, meaning if you have tons and tons of expensive mugs, they'll be priced down enough for your non-noble dwarves to afford them.

There is the question of whether it's worth the complexity. It could probably be abstracted to make little difference performance-wise but that may not be worth it to a lot of people, and others may want to shut it off because they don't want to deal with the idea of inflation in a videogame.

tl;dr version: instead of telling dwarves to stop making masterwork items, just introduce a sliding scale of value so if you have thousands of masterwork items they won't go crazy if one is lost, and workers will be able to afford them. I really didn't get into the idea of spending more time to make better quality stuff, that's a different issue entirely.

It occurs to me that there already is something of this in the system, the price of items will change on a percentage scale. It may be based more on raw quantity than average value per piece though.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 06:31:00 pm by Stromko »
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2008, 06:31:13 pm »

There are also two other solutions

1) Auto-trade: Some limited trade where they will swap high quality objects for multiple low quality ones

2) Economy adjustment: If there is nothing but masterwork objects in your fortress... isn't it only natural that the price over all of them to go down as the market crashed?
-Note: I think this should apply to rooms...

Though mind you... that so far there is no need to activate your economy except that it is a challenge.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 06:34:12 pm by Neonivek »
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2008, 06:46:45 pm »

Quote
The fact of the matter is, there is not one source of any mytholigcal dwarves 

Stop thinking Mythology and start thinking Dwarf Fortress... DF Dwarves are different...

There weren't any mythological source where Elves were ANYTHING like they are in Dwarf Fortress... Heck most Elves in mythology were evil beings! rather then nature huggers.

So long as there is ANYTHING mythological in a game, LIKE DWARVES, then ITS BASED IN SOME WAY OFF OF THE MYTHS THAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY FROM. DWARVES AREN'T AN EXCEPTION.
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Cog - He's the new Urist.
Yes they are a bunch of drunken unstable retards, but they're MY drunken unstable retards, and I will take care of them.
It could be worse, that cat could be alive.

Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2008, 06:50:29 pm »

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So long as there is ANYTHING mythological in a game, LIKE DWARVES, then ITS BASED IN SOME WAY OFF OF THE MYTHS THAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY FROM. DWARVES AREN'T AN EXCEPTION

Yes however *Caps* Dwarf Fortress puts their own spin on dwarves to the point where they took on an entirely new life and culture then the myths. *Caps*

To sum up: In the same way that a movie "Based on a true story" can be NOTHING like what actually happened (See the movie "V is for Victory" for a great example of this). Dwarf Fortress' Dwarves while similar are very much unalike like mythological dwarves in various ways
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 06:53:21 pm by Neonivek »
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death_cookie

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2008, 07:09:30 pm »

Tolkien's dwarves are highly artistic, and value quality craftsdwarfship above all things.

Now, this shouldn't matter, because DF is DF, and its creatures are its own. But if you want to argue that there isn't any book with artsy dwarves, well, Tolkien's work is the direct ancestor to modern-day generic fantasy dwarves.
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