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Author Topic: Crafting: Time vs. Quality  (Read 2258 times)

Caledonian

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Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« on: July 13, 2008, 10:21:54 am »

At present, crafting skills has two positive effects:  the chances of creating an object of higher quality increase, and the time it takes to create objects decreases.  However, there are subtle drawbacks and disadvantages to these effects.  Sometimes it is desirable to have base-quality objects, especially in things that are intended to serve basic roles.  Producing nothing but exceptional and masterpiece stone doors is a disadvantage if you're trying to create cheap and spartan bedrooms, for example.  You can always assign an inexperienced worker to the task of creating basic goods, but they eventually gain skill.  Skilled engravers produce historical documentation in a manner that is valuable both to the dwarves and to the player, but sometimes we might wish them to produce the simple designs they once made - and this is not likely with a skilled engraver.  In this way, basic goods are a limited resource of sorts.

I also find it a bit strange that the time taken to create an object is inversely related to the probable quality of the object.  Skilled workers should be able to create higher quality items faster than less-skilled, certainly, but I feel there should be more of a trade-off between speed of production and potential quality.  As the saying goes:  Fast, Cheap, Good:  choose any two."  The 'cost' of production is constant in DF, so we're left with two options - we should have to choose between them.

Therefore, I make the following proposal:  at some level of implementation, there should be a slider control that operates along the scale of Quality to Speed; the setting would determine which desirable property was prioritized.  Worker experience would determine how much 'skill resource' is available to be alloted to the priority.  This has a variety of desirable effects.

An unskilled worker couldn't choose to go faster at the expense of quality, nor could he choose to sacrifice quality for speed.  The goods are made as well as he knows how, and no amount of extra time can improve them; they're made as quickly as he knows how, and they cannot be made any more crudely without ceasing to be functional at all.

A skilled worker, however, has options.  Because of his greater skill, he can make better objects, faster.  If he chooses, he can rush the work, churning out goods at an even greater speed at the cost of limiting their quality.  Or he can take additional time beyond his base rate, using the extra care and effort to produce goods of higher quality than his normal work.

A Legendary crafter could produce basic goods blindly quickly, compared to an unskilled worker.  Or he could take more time and aim for great accomplishment; the greater the potential quality of the result, the more time would be needed.  The default setting would allot skill resource equally between skill and time, resulting in skilled workers making better goods faster than unskilled - but not as quickly as they might, and not well-crafted as they could possibly manage.

I am uncertain as to whether this slider would be best implemented on individual dwarves, individual workshops, or as a property of individual tasks.  I suspect that setting this quality on a workshop would be easiest to implement; assigning workshops to individual dwarves is already a feature, so a skilled worker will probably have his own tools and raw materials that are denied to lessers.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Criticisms?  Please share them.
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 10:45:25 am »

The reason a novice creates objects faster then a master in real life has to do mostly with the fact that the Novice will skip a lot of steps towards the creation of their object.

However as anyone who watches someone make a Persian Rug is concerned... a Master is leagues faster then a novice when both take the proper steps

As for your suggestion... because the Dwarves are a crafting race who can become blissfully happy just by seeing a well crafted door... I don't think a dwarf would ever intentionally not do his best on a crafting job... So I think the bar is pernamently set to "Quality" over "Quantity"

To sum up: IMO The Lack of Mass production, rather quantity over quality, in Dwarven society is part of their culture rather then not implimented.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 10:57:14 am by Neonivek »
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vanarbulax

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 11:02:10 am »

Yeah this is a really good idea, while I don't think that wanting low quality items is much of an issue I do always find it odd that masterpieces can be made in a couple of seconds. Instead of a scale I'd suggest just an option for setting the minimum and/or maximum quality you want the item to be which would have the same effect but you wouldn't have to guess the item quality is going to be and it would limit certain jobs to dwarves with the necessary  skill level.

If this were to be implemented I'd suggest it as a per job thing. Ideally I'd like a small menu which you could expand when you create a job which would have a number of options such as: number of times you want the job done, what material it should use, if it should avoid being canceled (e.g if the job is interrupted it should pick up when it left off as soon as possible), the quality level (being able to choose the minimum and maximum from the six quality levels) and repeats such as: repeat until run out of required material, repeat until stocks of required material is equal to or less than x, repeat until number stocks of items in fortress is equal to x, repeat when stocks of available material is greater than or equal to x and repeat until fortress stocks of item are great than or equal to x. The menu would be optional and unaltered jobs would just be stand like currently (any dwarf skill level, any material, done once or repeat until job cancellation). If that was to happen all my wishes with job orders would be fulfilled.
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2008, 12:11:14 pm »

If a Dwarf would have otherwise made an item of a higher quality when you put a quality limiter, they should get a negative thought.

If they would have otherwise made a masterwork they should tantrum instantly

I personally think the "Quality limiters" work once you start to be able to play Humans... since they arn't so Craft based and wouldn't feel their pride hurt because you want 100 mediocre beds

Actually I am against Quality sliders/limiters all together... Why would a Dwarf ever in his right mind not go for a masterwork everytime?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 12:22:00 pm by Neonivek »
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Brian

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2008, 12:16:06 pm »

I just think dwarves get too skillful too fast at some things.  Maybe it's the moods, but seriously, you can go from dabbling to legendary in a year.. and then the crafts aren't even worth that much more anyway!

Then again for other things maybe 20 goods produced should be enough to get you up high, like saying using the architecture skill.


Back to the original point of the thread, yar I can see if not a slider, just an option: Try to produce masterful creations, or try to produce for speed.  Levels of legendary could increase the quality of the speed items and increase the speed of the masterful items.
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2008, 12:25:38 pm »

If a Dwarf would have otherwise made an item of a higher quality when you put a quality limiter, they should get a negative thought.

If they would have otherwise made a masterwork they should tantrum instantly

I personally think the "Quality limiters" work once you start to be able to play Humans... since they arn't so Craft based and wouldn't feel their pride hurt because you want 100 mediocre beds

Disagreeing with the tantruming, tantruming is easy enough to do as is without making yet ANOTHER way to piss off the dwarves. Besides, how would they know what would have been? There is knowing it might have happened, but there is no definite way for them to know that it WILL be masterpiece after all.

But yeah, liking the idea. I'd rather have a ton of shittastic items than a bunch of items nobody can buy, once the economy kicks in.
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 12:31:20 pm »

"there is no definite way for them to know that it WILL be masterpiece after all"

Because they will with flawless strokes of their brush see that because of limitations by the man their work will never realise its full potential! Their muse was comprimised!

"I'd rather have a ton of shittastic items than a bunch of items nobody can buy, once the economy kicks in"

As Ive said before... this is more an indication that the economy is flawed...

When I think of it... maybe Toady set it up so you were supposed to buy things of lesser quality... hmmm
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 12:38:22 pm by Neonivek »
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Caledonian

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2008, 03:29:44 pm »

It's also very important that you make practice weapons before your crafters become skilled.  Ideally, you'd want them to do as little damage as possible, so base quality is important.
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Nazush Ebsas

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2008, 03:40:58 pm »

Had this thought myself particularly as regards mining. A screen similar to 'economic stones' could be made so you can set the amount of effort miners put into preserving usable samples of minerals, so the roll is still semi random, but you're not preserving every last millimetre of flint. I can't see why a miner would complain over that ;)

My suggestion for ppl having artisans produce too fast would be to turn off all hauling jobs on items/furniture, let the workshops go purple =D Still, I don't really think it's so much an issue that time vs quality, so much as that some professions, in some circumstances, gain xp way too quickly. For instance, sand should really not be any easier to mine through than granite, moving through granite is simple, getting sand to stay still isn't, simulated in the need for bags to make glass but not in the difficulty of excavation. Longwinded example, but anyway, obviously miners gain xp too qickly, artifacts are probably too common, or the effect of their production too good.
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irmo

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2008, 03:42:01 pm »

Quote
Therefore, I make the following proposal:  at some level of implementation, there should be a slider control that operates along the scale of Quality to Speed; the setting would determine which desirable property was prioritized.  Worker experience would determine how much 'skill resource' is available to be alloted to the priority.  This has a variety of desirable effects.

I object to this for several reasons which I've expressed before, but if something like this is included, it should not be a slider that can be switched over to "Fast" and left there. The default should be "Best quality", with "Fastest" (only; no sliding scale crap) assigned on a per job basis, to make it clear that you're ordering the dwarves to commit a terrible sin. This should come with a massive happiness penalty.
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2008, 04:03:44 pm »

Yeah, happiness penalty, because it's sooooo terrible to need to make things that people can afford  ::)
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 04:46:30 pm »

Quote
Yeah, happiness penalty, because it's sooooo terrible to need to make things that people can afford 

Dwarves havn't reached Modern art just yet... So they won't be interested in the mass production of crafts as an artform for another 1000+ years if ever
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 04:52:47 pm »

Quote
Yeah, happiness penalty, because it's sooooo terrible to need to make things that people can afford 

Dwarves havn't reached Modern art just yet... So they won't be interested in the mass production of crafts as an artform for another 1000+ years if ever

It's not about art, it's about being able to actually OWN the item, rather than having some noble claim it because they have the money and you don't. The whole point of the suggestion was that later on, furniture is AFFORDABLE, not necessarily NICE.
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Draco18s

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 04:56:15 pm »

Hasn't this exact thread and every idea in it already occurred, or I am I having deja vu again?
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Neonivek

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Re: Crafting: Time vs. Quality
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 04:58:56 pm »

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It's not about art

We are speaking about Dwarves... everything they make is about art.

It isn't just a sword... it is the expression of the Dwarves soul!

Quote
Hasn't this exact thread and every idea in it already occurred, or I am I having deja vu again?

Kinda Ive had the same arguement before where I basically say any ability to make a Dwarf try to make something of lesser quality is against their society and should at least produce unhappyness
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