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Author Topic: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture  (Read 6154 times)

Draco18s

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Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« on: July 08, 2008, 12:23:41 am »

WARNING: A bit rambley (and full of parentheticals).
In reading the god awful boring book I have for Cultural Anthropology I ran across a sidebar saying:

Was the invention of Agriculture a Terrible Mistake?

And lists a few costs associated with farming: social inequality, disease, despotism, destruction of the environment from soil exhaustion and chemical poisoning, water pollution, damn and river diversions, to air pollution from tractors.

Now I'm not suggesting that all of these things be implemented, but currently everyone agrees that farming is too easy (I typically have two 6x8 farms (one inside, one outside) set to one crop for 1 season each: one spring, one fall, and STILL end up with more food than I can use) and that there is no downside to farming (other than finding a place to store it) and it only takes 1 or 2 dwarves to keep 100 to 200 feed and drunk.  Historically it's taken more than that (5-10%, I think are the numbers, possible exception being Ireland when they grew potatoes pre-famine due to it taking less land to grow the same amount of food, the famine would have been a passing thing if the British hadn't exported 90% of the food and spent more than 50,000 pounds to feel 8 million people).

What farming could use are some specific events that would mean you need more farms, more farmers, crop rotation, and actually fertilizing (hopefully something besides wood to do it with) to achieve the same production.

Ideas can be taken from the list above (disease, for example, could kill all the plants in a farm, soil depletion means that a seed only has a 50-50 chance of sprouting and making a stack of 1, fertilizing too much could cause soil poisoning, whereby nothing will grow until you flood water through the room, which then would be "polluted water" but there's nothing to indicate that right now--[SALTY] might work) or others can be suggested.  We're not trying to nerf farming, we're just trying to make it not be a 200+% returns industry (even a novice farmer gets back twice what he spent--idea: reduce the number of seeds per plant to 1, so that a stack of 1 gives 1 seed, and a stack of 5 gives 5, but make it so withered plants also return a seed, because that's what happens: it "went to seed" and isn't edible, but can be used to grow another).

Another idea: farmers must routinely return to the farm to tend to the plants, can't just plant and ignore.  This causes a need for more farmers, as each plant needs to be visited several times throughout its life (instead of two: planting and harvesting) and that that care is what determines yield, not the skill of the planter (though it could influence).  An idiot planting seeds will get many plants, and lots of fruit, but if he doesn't keep the weeks off and the bugs out he won't end up with much that's edible.  See: Sim Farm (it was simple, and actually fun in a way to balance the needs of crops, though sometimes it got a little out of hand when you didn't know WTF you were doing and doing what the icons told you wasn't enough--I'm suggesting that it be automated: plant, remove weeds, water, remove pests, harvest; different plants could have different needs, such as plump helmets (being mushrooms) are plant, water, water, remove weeds, water water, harvest or cave wheat would be plant, water, remove weeds, water, remove pests, fertilize (would effect entire plot), harvest.  Each crop would have a list of tasks to be called at certain maturity levels (at day 5: water me) and that if the task doesn't get done in a certain amount of time then the plant's "quality level" goes down and produces a smaller stack).
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Joseph Miles

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 12:43:10 am »

I like it, but seems to me a bit much to integrate into the game right now, definitely something to work for though.
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Draco18s

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 12:47:08 am »

Long term, yes. :)
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Overdose

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 01:16:35 am »

sounds good, only i'd rather it if you had a middle way with the quality modifications, so even novice growers can get stacks of [3] with crops if they have enough free time to tend them constantly, while you'd get normal output for tending to them, but missing things like a watering here, or a weeding there.

I'm not too sure about the whole drought/locusts/disease thing. Having additional tasks for farmers though might make em grow their skill a little bit faster at least, it took me nearly 5 years to get a legendary farmer the only time i had one, despite having all dwarves harvest off.
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JujuBubu

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 02:11:06 am »

Vermin is allready integrated into the game. If they were attracted to farms they could surely annoy the farmers .. and to keep it real, large monocultered fields attract them more than small fields with seasonal cropchanges ..
they should be captured or killed, which results in cats or trappers .. ( and mayhap a option of just killing the damn vermin, instead of destilling it .. or waiting for a drunk dwarf to mistake it for food ..
just kill it and throw it in the dump .. )

fertilizer could come from a lot of stuff .. wood, plants, rotting food ( except meat ), some stone types ( sulfur, nitrate ) .. milled bones could be used i guess,
and watering should keep the farmers occupied too, they need a bucket as steady working equipment, and a well nearby :)

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1138

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 03:26:12 am »

One of the best sources of fertilizer is manure...finally a use for all those horses? ;D Actually, that would be cool. Have a dwarf whose job is to go around cleaning up manure and food waste (leftover leaves, fish skins, etc.)and put it in a compost pile (probably a building, rather than a stockpile). He would have to occasionally turn the pile, and after a month or so it would mature into fertilizer and be ready to be spread over the fields. At least it would give dwarves a reason to shoo livestock out of the dining room (drives me crazy) and not have their 1400lb pets following them all over the fortress.
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JujuBubu

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 03:40:38 am »

ooops .. i forgot about that ..
another good use for the bucket :)
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Granite26

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 08:08:22 am »

Man I hate cultural anthropologists... they should all be thrown onto a desert island to kill pigs or (more likely) starve

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 11:25:29 am »

...Have a dwarf whose job is to go around cleaning up manure and food waste (leftover leaves, fish skins, etc.)and put it in a compost pile (probably a building, rather than a stockpile). He would have to occasionally turn the pile, and after a month or so it would mature into fertilizer and be ready to be spread over the fields...

It could be a new Noble!!1!

(Not serious)

I really like the OP's suggestion of having regular tasks for each plant that need to be done. I did the math for plants; you would need about 10 total squares of plot to grow what you currently grow in one reallisticly- if this was the case, bigger farms mean that it would be difficult to hide them inside the fortress; Instead you might need to put them outside- where they could be invaded by goblins, who would truly siege you even if they couldn't get in!
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 11:34:45 am »

I think people would still farm inside, they'd just carve out huge farm areas.

It would be nice if farming were more complex, involving irrigation, pests, blights, fertility, and of course nutrition. Eating nothing but mushrooms and wine made from mushrooms is bad for you. But simplicity is also good, and right now it's well balanced against the other industries.

But in general I like the idea.
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Draco18s

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 11:37:13 am »

Man I hate cultural anthropologists... they should all be thrown onto a desert island to kill pigs or (more likely) starve

I agree.  I'm only taking the damn class to graduate, need 1.5 more credits of a social science and they only come in 3 credit chunks (damn school only transferring my Geography from the community college as 1.5 credits instead of the full 3!)
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Granite26

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 12:15:56 pm »

There's been some mention of beefing up the fertilization system, so you're probably in luck on the 'farming takes work' front

Skizelo

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 01:14:09 pm »

I like the ideas of plague (imagine what damage a Plump Helmet Rot could do) but they'd have to be very rare to balance out their effects. Also, here's how I see pests on plants working; unlike most vermin, which could still bother plants, a plant can become contaminated with aphids (cave-aphids? Aphidmen?), which generates the job "kill pests" under the farming (fields) labour. If this isn't done soon, then the contamination spreads to adjacent plants. If left untreated, the plants end up as withered (like they do now if left unharvested). This would need two new states of crop-growth; sapling, where they are visible on the map, but not yet harvestable; and infected (I'm thinking just a colour shift on both).
This'd make farming a more work-intensive job, and therefore up the difficulty.
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Draco18s

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 01:58:49 pm »

I like the ideas of plague (imagine what damage a Plump Helmet Rot could do) but they'd have to be very rare to balance out their effects. Also, here's how I see pests on plants working; unlike most vermin, which could still bother plants, a plant can become contaminated with aphids (cave-aphids? Aphidmen?), which generates the job "kill pests" under the farming (fields) labour. If this isn't done soon, then the contamination spreads to adjacent plants. If left untreated, the plants end up as withered (like they do now if left unharvested).

Exactly my thoughts on both.
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irmo

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Re: Downside (Costs) of Agriculture
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 02:01:52 pm »

I think irrigation is the place to start here. Mud should eventually dry out and have to be refreshed. This will happen faster if there are crops planted, since they suck up the water as they grow. When the field starts to dry out, your farmers will grab buckets and start watering. This is practical for small plots but very time-consuming for large fields, and if they don't get to all of it in time, some of the crop will be lost.

With a good irrigation system, very large fields become practical and your farmers don't have to do anything but plant and harvest.
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