Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[DJ]

Lets talk numbers for a little bit.  The DF screen does match the VT100 standard of 80x25.  That is 2000 characters.  For simplicity I am going to ignore a few telnet standards that might add some characters from time to time.  Next we have to do the colors using the VT/ANSI standards that calls for a code of <ESC>[##;##m everytime the color is changed.  Once again simplicity would be to send the color code for each character, which makes 20k bytes per screen, so far.  We then need to include a small amount of control data, and some math, to arrive at 19.63KB per screen.

What graphics refresh rate did you want again?  Does 8 FPS sound good?  Would you want DF to slow down so it doesn't flood your limited bandwidth?  Do you have any idea just how much bandwidth you actually have?

Of course that doesn't even count the work Toady would have to do to make DF send that data, and also make it know to hang around like a server just waiting for anyone to connect.  Add to that many of us really want and use custom fonts and graphics for better display.  Many of us still want even more display options, for example elves should look different from elephants.

The problem is that you're sending too much data. Vast majority of colour-character combinations are unused, so I reckon you could reduce the bandwidth requirements by sending just the id of what is to be displayed at a specific location. So, you'd send just a series of unsigned 16bit integers, which amounts to 2 bytes per tile, or less than 4kb per screen, and the program on DS would look up the id in a table and display appropriate symbol for that creature/item/whatever. And even that can be reduced, because 65 536 unique id-s is a bit of an overkill.

[ivegotgoodabs]

Porting DF to the DS would require work, work, work, for what is, essentially, unnecessary.

You'd be better off making a game that looks and plays somewhat like DF from scratch.

[Reasonableman]

Porting DF to the DS would require work, work, work, for what is, essentially, unnecessary.

You'd be better off making a game that looks and plays somewhat like DF from scratch.

NO NO NO NO NO, no no no. No? No. NOT A PORT. This has nothing to do with porting. NOT A PORT NOT A PORT. Nooooo porting is possible so far as the DS is concerned. WAAAAAY too weak and lacking in memory.

What I am suggesting is entirely and completely different. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT PORTING DWAAARF FORTRESS TO THE DS. Isn't even remotely possible. Not in the slightest. Do not confuse porting with what we're talking about here.


EDIT: On another note, you can transmit JPEG image files to the DS via your standard 54Mb router at a rate of around 1-3 per second, with two separate images precisely the size of the DS screen. I have not the slightest clue what this means so far as bandwidth is concerned. I get this "data" from a little homebrew app called Win2DS, look it up if you wish.

[ivegotgoodabs]

NO NO NO NO NO, no no no. No? No. NOT A PORT. This has nothing to do with porting. NOT A PORT NOT A PORT. Nooooo porting is possible so far as the DS is concerned. WAAAAAY too weak and lacking in memory.

What I am suggesting is entirely and completely different. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT PORTING DWAAARF FORTRESS TO THE DS. Isn't even remotely possible. Not in the slightest. Do not confuse porting with what we're talking about here.

umm...

[Andir]

umm...

Perhaps you didn't get it....

NO NO NO NO NO no no no no no no no no NO No Know no no no on no no no !!  No NO nO!

[Reasonableman]

Sorry about that, I just had to drive that point across. That is not in any way related to anything on this thread. A DS port of DWAAARF FORTRESS is totally and completely infeasible. There is no way that it is even remotely possible. The original idea behind my suggestion is that somehow, output would be sent to the DS from a computer (basically turning it into a monitor of sorts) and an on-screen keyboard would be used to send commands back to the computer. We have already discussed DS portness, due entirely to someone misconstruing my first post, and I am just tired of reading again and again that it would be impossible to port. I'm just desperately trying to push this thread back on topic, as in, toward the feasability of transmitting DF output via the interwebs or somesuch.

[Stromko]

Output of Announcements and the ability to pause or unpause would be the only things necessary to make one wish to 'play' DF on a DS.

That way when you're waiting SIX HOURS for your dwarves to mine a mountain hollow, you can go somewhere else and just click the screen every time "You've struck Alunite!" comes up, or go back and muster your defenses when a Vile Force of Darkness appears.

If one actually wanted the graphics to be transmitted, maybe you could change the G_FPS_CAP:20 in the init to 1, so you're only having to transmit one screen a second.

[Granite26]

Reasonableman:  Check the remote desktop link above... it'll let you do what you are talking about

[Reasonableman]

Reasonableman:  Check the remote desktop link above... it'll let you do what you are talking about

I hadn't noticed that post, but yes,that's what I was referring to when I mentioned Win2DS. The problem is the lack of keyboard support - I'd have to step off of the desktop and re-map whatever key I'd like to hit to the A or X or R button or what have you. And no, pressing 'select' won't work either, that's only for text entry in text boxes and such, so far as I can tell.

Still, it seems to me that some form of streamlining for DWAAARF FORTRESS (coupled with over-the-internet capability, for playing away from home,) with this program could result in a playable, mostly portable version of DWAAARF FORTRESS.

[Angry Lawyer]

Lets talk numbers for a little bit.  The DF screen does match the VT100 standard of 80x25.  That is 2000 characters.  For simplicity I am going to ignore a few telnet standards that might add some characters from time to time.  Next we have to do the colors using the VT/ANSI standards that calls for a code of <ESC>[##;##m everytime the color is changed.  Once again simplicity would be to send the color code for each character, which makes 20k bytes per screen, so far.  We then need to include a small amount of control data, and some math, to arrive at 19.63KB per screen.

What graphics refresh rate did you want again?  Does 8 FPS sound good?  Would you want DF to slow down so it doesn't flood your limited bandwidth?  Do you have any idea just how much bandwidth you actually have?

Of course that doesn't even count the work Toady would have to do to make DF send that data, and also make it know to hang around like a server just waiting for anyone to connect.  Add to that many of us really want and use custom fonts and graphics for better display.  Many of us still want even more display options, for example elves should look different from elephants.

The problem is that you're sending too much data. Vast majority of colour-character combinations are unused, so I reckon you could reduce the bandwidth requirements by sending just the id of what is to be displayed at a specific location. So, you'd send just a series of unsigned 16bit integers, which amounts to 2 bytes per tile, or less than 4kb per screen, and the program on DS would look up the id in a table and display appropriate symbol for that creature/item/whatever. And even that can be reduced, because 65 536 unique id-s is a bit of an overkill.

Even then, you could get a whole lot more efficiency by only transmitting tile data on change.  You'd not keep sending the same floor tile over and over again - only when you either move the screen or when a "changed" event is found.

-Angry Lawyer

[Getheli]

So you'd be able to play DF on the computer and occasionally check your DS to pause/unpause for announcements?

I have no experience with this whatsoever, but I do have a DS, so it sounds like an amazing idea.

Would you be able to do it anywhere? Or would you be limited to only using your DS in the same building/radius as your computer?

What keys would be most useful, aside from pause/unpause?

Very interesting stuff.

[Granite26]

So you'd be able to play DF on the computer and occasionally check your DS to pause/unpause for announcements?

I have no experience with this whatsoever, but I do have a DS, so it sounds like an amazing idea.

Would you be able to do it anywhere? Or would you be limited to only using your DS in the same building/radius as your computer?

What keys would be most useful, aside from pause/unpause?

Very interesting stuff.

The pause/unpause is what interests me.  Not as an improve DF suggestion, but as an interesting reason to run a remote desktop of the DS.  IMHO there's no need to change DF for this, but there's remote desktop software to connect and run the desktop on your DS.  Seems cool