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Author Topic: "It is a time of great turmoil..."  (Read 1818 times)

AlmostEverywhere

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"It is a time of great turmoil..."
« on: May 22, 2008, 05:22:00 pm »

I couldn't decide if this belonged on the suggestion board or here, but as it's more of a question than a suggestion I'm putting it here.

Something about the concept behind DF has been bothering me for a while.  The organic world-gen is great and everything, but when I think about really good, epic stories, they all take place at a time that's really historically important.  Think about it.  How many good novels and game-plots start with an empire in danger of collapse, or discovery of some long-forgotten power, or some other super-historical event?  The more I think about it, the more I realize the answer is "almost all of them".

So then there's DF, which has the ULTIMATE potential for different possible stories.  But shouldn't these stories be GOOD?  I mean, if you're plopped down in the middle of a a nice, stable empire, without much going on, no wars, solid treaties, well... it'll be boring once you've depopulated the kobolds.  The game is much cooler if you're starting in a time when the human-dwarf alliance is in danger of collapsing since the goblins started attacking their trade caravans, and only the elvish armies could save it if they'd just stop sending all their forces against that darn bronze colossus! (for example)  I remember a powergoal where you snatch the crown from your nephew as he's being crowned king, and claim the throne for yourself... but if crowning ceremonies tend to happen once a generation or so, that's like every 15-20 years... and how many people play an adventurer for that mcuh game time?

In short, whether you're playing adventurer or dwarf mode, I think the game becomes more interesting if you're playing in A Time Of Great Turmoil.  A historically significant time, which by definition means that there should be more going on in 1050 than in earlier years.

This isn't a complaint, because there are lots of ways to address this sort of thing.  Here's some ideas I've had.

-The Adventurer creates the turmoil:  If an adventurer starts in a stable empire, it's up to him to destabilize it.  This would be the easiest to do code-wise (none needed), but of course it seems to limit the possibilties, and might make worlds less unique.

-Fixed history:  During worldgen, things like wars or other destabilizing events are more "encouraged" as play-time approaches (that is, species are less likely to go to war early, and/or are more likely as 1050 approaches).  This is somewhat nebluous, but seems like a good rough idea to me.

-Constant Turmoil:  Enough different things CAN be going on at any given time that usually, SOMETHING interesting is happening in any given year.  This would mean a LOT of detail in world-gen, and might require some sort of safeguard against, say, the elves taking over the world with an army of 2600 bowmen.

I'd be interested to hear what people think about my concern, the thoughts about how do deal with it, and other ideas.

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thvaz

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 05:42:00 pm »

I think the idea of the game is letting the player to create the history he wants. If he wants to play in a time of turmoil, he could assassinate the emperor of the most powerful empire and throw it in a civil war...or he could play generations of   farmers instead.
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Armok

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 06:00:00 pm »

well, I have one other idea to ad to that list, but it is probably harder to implement; the game runs the simulation until it detects turmoil, and places the player near it.
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Toady One

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 06:49:00 pm »

I think I had some rants along these lines when I discussed genre/atmosphere/plot stuff in the old Armok notes, and that's now all under World Generation Parameters, which is a future arc up on dev.  You can find the old notes at the consolidated development page if you text search for "Plot:" (the genre/atmosphere) stuff above that is related.  These notes don't necessarily apply any more, but it's still relevant.  Right now, I'm just working on the basics, which would correspond  to something like a standard emergent setting described in the notes.  Once you have that, you can start influencing/restricting it with different parameters.  It's not an easy problem, but it's certainly something I've been thinking about.  It'll be a while though.

There's also the Scenarios Arc in the v1 dev stuff, the status of which is a bit uncertain, but it's a way to get your adventurer optionally involved in some kind of story without having to shape all of world gen around it.  It's an easier problem (and if the player wants a scenario, it could morph the world a bit to accomodate) and will likely be handled sooner.

[ May 22, 2008: Message edited by: Toady One ]

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AlmostEverywhere

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 08:52:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>Pressing "Play Now!" would answer the questions automatically, perhaps with a strong tendency to place you in dire/interesting situations.
</STRONG>

Wow, I hadn't seen that bit of the dev notes before.  It's sort of a "Constant turmoil" solution, with a little help from strategic placement of plot events and the character.  So based on the world gen parameters, it would set up some sort of plot to culminate at play-time?  Like you could choose "single dark foe", and it might seed a demon in the year 100, cheat for it a little to keep it alive and make it powerful, so that in 1050 it rules a vast empire just across the mountains and is about to invade with its legions of goblins?  And then you can either go in adventurer to try to assassinate the demon, or build a dwarven fortress on the mountain peak to defend against the oncoming goblin hordes!  That's pretty awesome.  The only thing I can say to that is be careful how much input the player needs to give in order to make a reasonable plot... some good default settings should handle that though.

I think I should emphasize that I'm not suggesting this sort of thing for one of the next few releases, but rather as something more long-term.  It's good to see that you're thinking about it along the way, though.  Well, whenever the worldgen parameters arc comes along, I'll be super-excited!

And, um, thvaz... play generations of farmers?  Really?

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Kagus

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2008, 08:55:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by AlmostEverywhere:
<STRONG>
And, um, thvaz... play generations of farmers?  Really?</STRONG>

The first time I ever played ADOM, I made a hurthling farmer that I intended to make an herb farm with and live peacefully ever after.

Keizo

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2008, 09:18:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>

The first time I ever played ADOM, I made a hurthling farmer that I intended to make an herb farm with and live peacefully ever after.</STRONG>


Too bad an out of depth monstie would eventually come down to rain hell on your poor hurthling's arse.

On another note, that little reference of yours makes me want to play ADOM...

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Kagus

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2008, 09:47:00 pm »

Out of depth monsters don't appear aboveground.


...

Do they?

Dasleah

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2008, 09:57:00 pm »

Dramatic tone:

*BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUUUUM*

 :p

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PTTG??

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2008, 11:38:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>The first time I ever played ADOM, I made a hurthling farmer that I intended to make an herb farm with and live peacefully ever after.</STRONG>

It's funny, I really want to do that! I tried to mod humans to be Fortressmodeable and build a town, but it was sooo difficult to make the houses just because it takes a zillion logs to build an outhouse.

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WingDing

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 03:22:00 am »

Once the army arc is finished you will be able to send your own armies to create turmoil! Although I'm sure that if DF politics model real politics in any way you will have plenty of conflict and strife anyway...

...I hope!  :D

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Coke_Can64

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 08:34:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by WingDing:
<STRONG>Once the army arc is finished you will be able to send your own armies to create turmoil! Although I'm sure that if DF politics model real politics in any way you will have plenty of conflict and strife anyway...

...I hope!   :D</STRONG>


Politics in real life is already full of conflict and turmoil... but that's real life, completly seperate from DF  :p

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Neonivek

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 09:16:00 am »

"Once the army arc is finished you will be able to send your own armies to create turmoil!"

I thought the sending of your own armies was going to wait until the Carivan Arc (which is starting to become the largest V1 Arc of them all). It for some reason needs better object tracking.

But onto the topic at hand

There is one thing I somewhat disagree and somewhat agree with you AlmostEverywhere

I love the fact that you can shift the tide of the world soo much so that you single handedly can bring the world peace or nearly destroy it. I don't want to feel like I am playing in a universe that in the end reverses any real change I create.

However I don't like the fact that just by playing the game long enough... you can pretty much end everything interesting about the world... Evil Lands purified, Goblins dead, Megabeasts dead, and perhaps even the Semimegabeasts are dead too... All that is left to do is play Fortress mode or restart the world because peace is eternal.

I guess I kinda wish there were higher plots or some way to up the ante once you pretty much saved the world so you didn't have to restart it.

On the plus side... Dwarf Fortress is as it is right now... the ONLY setting EVER that has ever had a "And everyone lived happily ever after" and meant that in terms of forever.

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Haven

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 09:45:00 am »

Hm... Maybe if you crack open a... What, an HFS or something... And don't survive, it'll give your adventurer even more to do. Especially if it takes over and starts summoning things or something...
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Deon

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Re: "It is a time of great turmoil..."
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2008, 01:12:00 pm »

quote:
I guess I kinda wish there were higher plots or some way to up the ante once you pretty much saved the world so you didn't have to restart it.

I wish we have something like "The rumor passes that the darkness arises in the Frosthaunted Peaks" (a demon appears for goblin civ without one) or "Zeenku Sharpteeth united sattered goblin tribes" (a new goblin civ appears if there's none on the map) in future, I mean some dynamic world-wide events.
Also giant tornados killing elves in their retreats and turning some tiles from forest to shrubland... Tsunami on coast wiping cities...
I'm dreaming =). Anyway any dynamical events would be cool. Along with heralds to anounce them.

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