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[Jiri Petru]

I'm a total coding analphabet, but I do have a wild guess...

Wouldn't it be possible to externalize the controls and user interface (using Kealis's method, perhaps) in a similar way as the tilesets currently are? That way people could make their own interfaces as unofficial mods, while the core game would still retain it's roguelike looks and clumsy controls 

Actually, I thought the goal of presentation arc is to externalise these things.

[Nesoo]

I'm fairly certain that Toady has said, several times, that he's rather hesitant to open up the interface so it could be modded because he doesn't want a 3rd party interface to become popular and then have people blame him when it doesn't work right, isn't updated to the latest version right away, is abandoned, etc.

Something along those lines, anyway.

[JT]

One tangential complaint I have with the OP is that in my opinion, DF's elegance is in its current presentation.  I've always felt that graphics dilute the game, forcing you to conform to someone else's artistic vision instead of using your own imagination.  The ASCII graphics aren't a mark of laziness on the part of the developer; they're a mark of making the game unique in its own way.

I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who'd tackle DF if it was graphical and pretty, of course, but I'd rather that more effort was spent on making the game better than making it appeal to the common denominator.  (Toady's opinions might be more grey area than mine, because the more people he gets, the more income he gets.)

[Haven]

One tangential complaint I have with the OP is that in my opinion, DF's elegance is in its current presentation.  I've always felt that graphics dilute the game, forcing you to conform to someone else's artistic vision instead of using your own imagination.  The ASCII graphics aren't a mark of laziness on the part of the developer; they're a mark of making the game unique in its own way.

This always confuses me. How come people can't possibly imagine something any different than the game gives them, except if it's a letter or symbol? Quite honestly, I like being able to tell what something is at a glance, but beyond that graphics aren't a whole lot of good for a game like this, as it doesn't do first person immersion. Still, I want my stuff to look recognisable. That said, if the guy doesn't do art, he doesn't do art. He does enough everything else, and the tilesets work just fine. Or will work perfectly, once we have a tile for everything.

As for how this fits with interface, I think it should be opened up. There should be a vanilla interface, that works in all angles and works well. There should be interface mods, though. It's not as though people blame him for Tweak or Companion not working. Here assuming that, like the art, he doesn't do shiny interface, there's not a lot wrong with letting someone else offer their way, as long as it doesn't become the only way. Hence, the vanilla interface sticking around. But I suppose that was fairly obvious.

[Okenido]

Actually, isn't the presentation arc coming after the army arc?

I thought it was the caravan arc.

[Draco18s]

One tangential complaint I have with the OP is that in my opinion, DF's elegance is in its current presentation.  I've always felt that graphics dilute the game, forcing you to conform to someone else's artistic vision instead of using your own imagination.  The ASCII graphics aren't a mark of laziness on the part of the developer; they're a mark of making the game unique in its own way.

This always confuses me. How come people can't possibly imagine something any different than the game gives them, except if it's a letter or symbol? Quite honestly, I like being able to tell what something is at a glance, but beyond that graphics aren't a whole lot of good for a game like this, as it doesn't do first person immersion. Still, I want my stuff to look recognisable.

I enabled tiles in ToME/ADOM/other *band and had MORE trouble telling what stuff was.  There was simply not enough visual data.

Can't find the appropriate pictures at the moment.  But I've had to repeatedly [l]ook at things to figure out what they are.  Dogs, cats, rats, mice, hounds all look the same: a collection of about 16 pixels arranged in a vaguely four legged critter shape.  Whereas an r is always a rodent of somekind (what kind doesn't really matter) and d's are either dogs, hounds, or baby dragons (color depends on what's what--ordinary dogs are brown: a nice shaggy brown dog kind of deal, dragons and hounds are always colored to their element, baby dragons aren't typically very scary, and I think hounds are actually H's now that I think about it).

That said, I googled into a rather...unique way of doing a tileset.

http://www.olywa.net/cook/pictures/tiles20x10.bmp

Best of both worlds...almost.

[Kaelis Asur]

I'm fairly certain that Toady has said, several times, that he's rather hesitant to open up the interface so it could be modded because he doesn't want a 3rd party interface to become popular and then have people blame him when it doesn't work right, isn't updated to the latest version right away, is abandoned, etc.

Thats just unreasonable. Why would anyone blame original developer for third party utilities/components? Thats like complaining to Microsoft about Photoshop.

One tangential complaint I have with the OP is that in my opinion, DF's elegance is in its current presentation.  I've always felt that graphics dilute the game, forcing you to conform to someone else's artistic vision instead of using your own imagination.  The ASCII graphics aren't a mark of laziness on the part of the developer; they're a mark of making the game unique in its own way.

This isnt just about the graphics. Actually, after discovering custom tilesets, i dont mind the graphics, im fine with 16x16 tiles. Full support for sprite/tile graphics is just an added benefit, bonus, so to speak, not the purpouse. The main concern here is interface/input and how much data can DF supply to user (how big is the map window, how many menus, how many records in lists etc) at one time.

Thus, i have a small request to make: please dont derail this topic with yet another discussion about ascii vs proper graphics. This is not the main concern here

[LASD]

Actually, isn't the presentation arc coming after the army arc?

I thought it was the caravan arc.

I think it is the both of them mixed together with some third arc. I remember Toady saying somewhere that he didn't want to anchor himself to only one arc anymore.

[Granite26]

I saw a request for exporting the screen/control scheme through an API interface that would make DF run in the background but allow people to basically write their own presentation layer.  Kind of like all the big MMO's do.

Seems a lot more reasonable than trying to play user/subdeveloper in someone else's playground, especially when it's their livelyhood.

[Sowelu]

Very bad idea to make an API available to the world when you plan on breaking that API with every release you make.  Worrying about breaking that API can be very constraining.  Also, it's just one more thing that Toady needs to update with each release...time that could be better spent.

I trust that he knows what he's doing when he gets to the interface arc.

[BurnedToast]

I'm fairly certain that Toady has said, several times, that he's rather hesitant to open up the interface so it could be modded because he doesn't want a 3rd party interface to become popular and then have people blame him when it doesn't work right, isn't updated to the latest version right away, is abandoned, etc.

Thats just unreasonable. Why would anyone blame original developer for third party utilities/components? Thats like complaining to Microsoft about Photoshop.

And yet it does not change the fact he would get blamed when it didn't work right. People are stupid and unreasonable.

[RPharazon]

While DF is in development by Toady, he will never release the code. Ever.
The graphics won't be changed officially. The game is already a processor hog without having to worry about graphics processing. The ASCII drives away the casual gamers, raising the overall intellectual level of Dwarf Fortress. If you want graphical changes, there are options for tilesets.

In short, Toady likes his privacy and flexibility to work alone, and Dwarf Fortress will not have different or 3D graphics for a long, long time. Even then, it will change the feel of the game as a whole, and probably take away the charm of Dwarf Fortress and lower the overall quality of the community.

If you really want to support Dwarf Fortress that much, donate money to Toady. Save your time and energy.

[MoonCabbage]

be patient guys, i think we're all forgetting that this game is still in a very infant stage of alpha. Just because something isn't here yet doesnt mean its not down the list.

with that said... Dwarf Fortress will never be playable in 3D ever. At least not without a serious rehash of the code. Sprites and other tilesets are the best we will get to graphics for those who care about that.

As for helping out codding or the having the interface being opened for modding... Toady wants this game to be his and his alone. I think the dwarf fortress community needs to start respecting this request. As much as we may want the game to look "prettier" or to be coded faster it depends upon Toady alone. The intentions are in the right place but we need to be patient.

[Andir]

Very bad idea to make an API available to the world when you plan on breaking that API with every release you make.  Worrying about breaking that API can be very constraining.  Also, it's just one more thing that Toady needs to update with each release...time that could be better spent.

I trust that he knows what he's doing when he gets to the interface arc.

Please... I made the suggestion for the API several times and if it's properly done using generic terms for function names, then all Toady has to do is tell the third party dev(s) what to expect IF he decides to change the format of the data coming from the getWorldDataAt(x, y, z, radius) function or the processInput("UP") functions.  This API would NOT break on every release.  He could even supply a header file with constants that people can use for things such as: queueBuild(MAGMA_SMELTER, x, y, z).  For that function, the engine would return a string of data if the smelter could be built and any error messages like: "0, Building Placed"... "1, Building site obstructed" ...etc.

[Glutton]

To be honest, I dont think that implementing console mode to the DF is a good idea all. Why? If Im correct, the main reasons to improve the game in two ways:
1) Better interface
2) Better graphic

ad 1) I read through planned development. And there is presentation arc, isnt it? To improve the interface and accessibility. So... why should Toady spent precious time to creating 3rd party interface, if it will be useless in the future. It is not so easy change to allow 3rd party control the game as some ppl here are stating. And if the Toady is planning to do these interface improvements directly to the game - I would call it wasted time
ad 2) Do we really want some "better" graphic?  I really lide the ASCII look of the game. The difference between this and other games is like reading books vs watching films. Watching films is nice. Some new tricks can make your jaws drop... but it can not tell the stories so deeply as the books can. Because during reading the books, the reader imagination playes really huge role. And it is same with this game. When my dwarf becomes melancholy and vilingly go die to the empty coffin... I really laught - imagining how he is lying there... bored waiting to death. No high*end 3D graphic with the best animations can not do that. And it same with the fights. So in my opinion - the graphic would ruin this game. The player imagination is one of the things that is making it to look so deep.
There are alse technicla problems with 3rd party graphic addons... like that the game is showing one object on each squere - blinking if there is more of them. So just taking this array of titles and converting in 3D will work strangely... the 3D object on the same place will be swithing also?

So my opinion - console inteface is useless... at least yet. Maybe when the game will be compeltelly finished... yes maybe this can be added as the last modification.

BTW - small OT... - what is the "ARC" standing for? :-) I understant the meaning from the content... but have no idea where he gets that (not a native speeker - so sorry if it is a really stupid question)