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Author Topic: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information  (Read 4062 times)

Footkerchief

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Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« on: June 27, 2008, 01:56:21 pm »

Right now when dwarves talk, they don't (as far as I can tell) actually talk about anything, they just get stat boosts, develop friendships and grudges, and so on.

The game also keeps track of certain notable events -- the creation (and the destruction) of artifacts and masterpieces, creatures' deaths, elections, contact with other civilizations, the presence of demons, etc.  All the dwarves are essentially omniscient of these events -- they know instantly when a loved one is killed, or when their art is defaced.

Wouldn't it be cool if, instead of omniscience, the dwarves spread knowledge among themselves by communicating those events to each other?  On the face of it, it's not terribly hard -- you have a list of X many event objects, and a list of Y many dwarves, and X*Y possible links between them (I think).

In some cases this would be peachy.  Tekkud creates an artifact, and also gains knowledge of the event that she created the artifact.  She talks to other people and tells them about the event.  The knowledge begins to spread.  The idle peasants hear about it quickly, while the hunters might not hear the news for a few days since they're always busy outside the fortress.  The highly social engravers gain much more inspiration than the ones that keep to themselves.

Some events could be more urgent than others, and they could also affect the mood of the dwarf hearing about them.  Dwarves might be ashamed to tell that they were responsible for chasming an artifact, or even lie about it.  Conversational skills could finally play an interesting role.  There's a gigantic amount of potential here, and even the most basic implementation would enrich the game.

However, it doesn't take long to see the advantages of omniscience -- it avoids a lot of problems.  For instance, when a goblin kills a dwarf, there are only two creatures that should know about the event to begin with, the goblin and the dwarf.  And the dwarf's dead.  So how do the other dwarves "discover" the event?  Do they have to see the event take place?  Do they have to occupy the same tile, or even pick the body up?  Or do they have to find the body?  Then you need line-of-sight calculations, or something akin to ambush detection. 

This raises problems with consistency in the way dwarves perceive things, too.  For example, there are way too many rocks for the location of each one to be treated as an "event" that the dwarves can communicate to each other.  But then, how would they know there's a chunk of magnetite lying in a disused mine shaft six screens away, but not know that their friend's body is rotting ten feet away behind a closed door?  I don't know any good way of resolving this, but I also can't help thinking it would be really cool to at least see basic information propagate through the fortress in a meaningful way.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 01:59:16 pm by Footkerchief »
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Granite26

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2008, 02:08:16 pm »

I think that this game is being pulled between Civilization, Majesty, The Settlers, The Sims, and Sim City

Mephansteras

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2008, 02:17:04 pm »

It is supposed to be sort of "Sim-Fantasy" after all. At least, I think Toady's kind of referred to it as that.

As for the OP...that's a tough one.  I think things that are harvested, like Stone, wood, gems, and whatnot are automatically known because the various dwarves given the task to do that know when they've mined, copped down trees, etc. And, since these things are pre-designated, the rest of the fortress knows that the miners are off digging in that area. So hauler dwarves know to go grab stone from those areas, and assumedly are mentioning to each other things like "Yeah, there's still another 10 or some chunks of hematite back there that need to be grabbed". So that can be pretty well subsumed into the game without explicitly tracking it.

With items out of the way, you'd only need to track things like major events. Deaths, ambushes, mega-beasts, artifacts, and whatnot. Even there, though, you'd have lots of issues figuring out who's telling who what and figuring out who's seen what happen. Or heard. I mean, a Titan is probably pretty easy to detect even if you can't see him. Same with the screaming of dwarves being chased by goblins.

Overall, I'm not sure this idea is worth the processor hit you'd get from all of the line of sight tracking that'd be necessary to know who knows what. It'd make for some neat behavior, though, I'll agree with that.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2008, 02:31:17 pm »

With items out of the way, you'd only need to track things like major events. Deaths, ambushes, mega-beasts, artifacts, and whatnot. Even there, though, you'd have lots of issues figuring out who's telling who what and figuring out who's seen what happen. Or heard. I mean, a Titan is probably pretty easy to detect even if you can't see him. Same with the screaming of dwarves being chased by goblins.

Overall, I'm not sure this idea is worth the processor hit you'd get from all of the line of sight tracking that'd be necessary to know who knows what. It'd make for some neat behavior, though, I'll agree with that.

I pretty much agree that only the major events are worth tracking (although the game does track some strange stuff currently, like the event of a wagon falling.  Makes for a kickass engraving next to humans screaming and being shot).  Your mention of screaming is interesting -- I hadn't even thought about the sound aspect, even though it's kind of in the game already (dwarves disturbed by noise while sleeping).  Since sounds can be heard through walls it could simplify some of the perceptions to simple distance checks rather than real line-of-sight.
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Mikademus

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2008, 05:43:51 pm »

That avatar is REALLY distracting. Could I ask you to change it?

One fun thing would be if we could listen in to conversations, or the buzz of parties. "I am Urist Gloingroin, son of Foorist Groinloin, son of Barist Groincoin; slayer of vermin, maker of the bone floodgate 'Openloins Drowned', legandary screw operator", and see his social skills go up from that resume-disguised-as-exchange.
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Techhead

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2008, 09:51:00 pm »

Unfortunately, this means that hermit-engravers will likely spend even of their more time carving images of dwarves engraving into our mountain-halls.
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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2008, 12:32:11 am »

This is a masterwork depiction of a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of  a depiction of Urist Mcdwarfy engraving, engraved by Urist Mcdwarfy.
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MaxVance

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2008, 01:30:31 am »

This raises problems with consistency in the way dwarves perceive things, too.  For example, there are way too many rocks for the location of each one to be treated as an "event" that the dwarves can communicate to each other.  But then, how would they know there's a chunk of magnetite lying in a disused mine shaft six screens away, but not know that their friend's body is rotting ten feet away behind a closed door?  I don't know any good way of resolving this, but I also can't help thinking it would be really cool to at least see basic information propagate through the fortress in a meaningful way.
This is simple. Your bookkeeper keeps track of all items in your fortress and dwarves with tasks can ask the bookkeeper if there is any of a given material and how much.
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Align

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2008, 06:20:10 am »

Like corpses?
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Warlord255

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2008, 02:20:25 pm »

Deaths ought to be well-known, if only because their disappearance would eventually lead the dwarves to infer what happened anyway.

As for representing any incarnation of this, add it to the thoughts screen.

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bjlong

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2008, 03:27:02 pm »

Perhaps this could be expanded to off-site events, like traders and diplomats. I imagine the populace talks to them, and could then spread knowledge about off-site events. Moreover, the story teller could inflate certain parts of the story, depending on which people were "wronged" or "righted," by the story, leading either to outrage or a folk tale, if the story gets inflated in all the right ways.

This could lead to some fun generative behavior, such as everyone wanting to go to war with the Elves because they seiged a friendly human settlement.
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Vaiolis

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2008, 03:43:53 pm »

Rumors? Dwarves misunderstanding each other? I could see quite a lot of fun happening with that... and you all know what fun I mean...

Dwarf1 to Dwarf2: Did you hear about the dwarves at the settlement of bay12games? They were attacked by elves!
Dwarf2 to Dwarf3: Did you hear about the dwarves at the settlement of day12games? They were stormed by elves!
Dwarf3 to Dwarf4: Did you hear about the dwarves at the settlement of day12gains? They were hit by a storm of elves!
Dwarf4 to Dwarf5: Did you hear about those dwarves at day12gains? A raincloud came over them, and it was pouring elves!
Dwarf5 to Dwarf6: I hear there are dwarves who celebrate a new holiday, called the Day of 12 gains. They are celebrating the day when it was raining elves!
Dwarf6: DECLARE WAR NOW!
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Ookki

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2008, 07:40:33 am »

As for representing any incarnation of this, add it to the thoughts screen.

"Urist McMiner has been happy lately. He talked with a friend about dogs lately."

This was exactly the first thing that came to my mind when I read this thread. :) Overall this suggestion sounds terribly fun!
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Yaddy1

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2008, 09:42:57 am »

I think this is a good idea but it probobly won't come for a while.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Dwarven conversation and the spread of information
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2008, 04:36:33 pm »

Whoa, thanks for the bump.  Y'all brought up some good ideas and I have a few new thoughts of my own, so I'll try to pull it all together.

One of the implicit assumptions of this system is that "historical events" (wars, deaths, thefts, the creation of masterpieces, etc.) and "thought events" ("I was forced to eat my beloved pet recently," "I got out of jail recently") have to be unified under the same framework, because some events should count as both -- for instance, a king falling into depression due to a baron's pretentious dining arrangements is currently a personal "thought event," but it could also be a historically significant event with major consequences.

So let's analyze -- what makes the king's depression "historical?"  First: it's an important event to him.  This goes for victims or beneficiaries of any event.  Second: the king is in turn important to his civilization, a multitude of people.  Enemies of the king could be made happy by the news (including personal rivals, political opponents, and goblins screaming for his blood), while supporters of the king could be sad, or shameful, or frightened, depending on their own personality, and how exactly they relate to the king.

The notion of "common knowledge" is extremely important.  Particularly during worldgen, the game can't afford to track the propagation of information between every single person.  Generalizations have to be made -- initially the story spreads (unless it's kept secret) to a few people close to the king, but if it keeps spreading, the event quickly reaches the status of "common knowledge" in the capitol, by which point a select few people in other towns might know of the event as well, so the information keeps spreading.

Lying, ignorance and other forms of imperfect knowledge can also play in here.  One obvious bit of information that could get lost is the identities of people involved in the event -- the people might not know which baron offended the king.  How does this happen?  First, the king tells the whole story to a few confidants.  Somebody lets the cat out of the bag, but the baron's identity is misreported or omitted.  Who would do this, and why?
  • One of the confidants is a friend of the baron, and he anticipates that some people, who like the king better than the baron, will hate the baron for upsetting the king.  Mental attributes like social awareness could play a role in this kind of foresight.
  • A servant was eavesdropping and didn't catch all the details.
  • One of the confidants wants to arouse anger against another baron who wasn't involved.

Note that the people could still know that it was a baron.  So there need to be vague ways of describing people -- political positions, racial descriptors, physical characteristics, etc.  "My father was slaughtered by a six-fingered man" and all that great stuff.

The "that's not what I heard" situation -- garbled versions of events retain a link to the real event, so that the game can recognize when people are telling contradictory stories about the same event.  People can agree to disagree, or persuade each other by sheer force of personality, or whatever.

Imperfect knowledge could also arise circumstantially, rather than by miscommunication.  Take our "goblin kills dwarf" example.  If another dwarf is present, he will know that a goblin killed the dwarf, but he might not know which goblin.  (Masks and disguises!)  If nobody else is present, the dwarves will find the body, and might be totally clueless as to the cause of death.

And finally: insignificant events.  Nobody really cares that Geshud the peasant is tired of eating plump helmet stew.  He might tell a few acquaintances about it, but they don't care about him and they don't find the information interesting.  They don't pass the knowledge on to anybody else, so it remains effectively a personal event -- only important to Geshud.  Until 20 years later, when Geshud is a master engraver and immortalizes his hatred of plump helmets in captivating art!  So insignificant events could still lurk around, waiting to become significant, although the vast majority never would.

Oh, one last thought -- the logic needed for the devious confidante to lie about the baron's identity would be exactly the same logic used for propaganda art and other fictionalizations
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 09:38:23 pm by Footkerchief »
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