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[Moron]

Ok, maybe I'm still too new to the game to post meaningful suggestions, but this is something I've been thinking about both from my own playing experience and reading community forts etc.

It seems like it is far too easy to make your fort impregnable to sieges and almost all other attackers just by digging a channel around it, or building a wall (OK, flying creatures might be different).

But what if goblins eventually learned that if they brought some picks with them, and also gained some way to break down constructed walls (goblin masons?) they could dig into your fortress from below?

Maybe catapults should also be able to knock down walls (not instantly but after a lot of hits), and sieging armies should sometimes bring them.

Finally, maybe there should be a few types of random mega-ish beasts that dig tunnels (some kind of giant worm?) that can also be a threat to an otherwise impervious fort.

Of course, I'm sure players would quickly come up with ways to pour water and/or magma onto any enemies that were attempting to dig into the fort.

I'm not sure if the thing about besieging armies will already be covered in the army arc, but if not I think it would be interesting and worth thinking about.

[Doomduckie]

This is a commonly suggested improvement, but it's worthwhile at least in my opinion to see another post suggesting it- it's a really major dynamic to the game that is missing right now.

[stummel]

would gobbos be able to drive down in z-axis?
there would huge problems caused by them.

i think, this wouldn't be a fair ability - maybe in the 5th or 6th siege it could fit.

gobbo-caused cave-ins? want some?

[Virex]

Well, Gobo's wouldn't know where your underground structures are the first time around, so digging should only happen after they manage to force themselves into your underground area's. They'd probably remember the places they were and dig to one of those squares. That is, asuming a goblin survives to tell the tribe about it.

[Quift]

Well, Gobo's wouldn't know where your underground structures are the first time around, so digging should only happen after they manage to force themselves into your underground area's. They'd probably remember the places they were and dig to one of those squares. That is, asuming a goblin survives to tell the tribe about it.

this would make the entire abiltity moot, since they would never get there in the first place. Behind my walls, my watchtowers, deadly deep moat filled with magma and all that.

They should dig in immidiatly, knocking down doors and installing catapults to shoot at your entrance, your ramparts and raining ballista bolts into your main hallways.

[Moron]

Well the idea was more that the goblins would behave semi-intelligently - eg show up, realise they can't get in, and then maybe start some exploratory digging. If they dug to the edge of your magma pit they would get 'warm stone located' or something similar and maybe try digging down more or dig somewhere else.

If on the other hand your fort is just protected by a dry channel, then all they'd really need to do would be dig a few ramps.

Obviously they might not get very far as while they're doing this, the player might be pouring water, magma, ballista bolts or whatever else on them, but it would add an extra dimension to sieges.

It could be a FPS killer as the attackers would have to calculate possible digging directions as well as the normal pathing.

I wasn't suggesting this should happen on the first siege, only after the attackers have turned up in significant numbers and failed to find a way in.

[Virex]

Well, Gobo's wouldn't know where your underground structures are the first time around, so digging should only happen after they manage to force themselves into your underground area's. They'd probably remember the places they were and dig to one of those squares. That is, asuming a goblin survives to tell the tribe about it.

this would make the entire abiltity moot, since they would never get there in the first place. Behind my walls, my watchtowers, deadly deep moat filled with magma and all that.

They should dig in immidiatly, knocking down doors and installing catapults to shoot at your entrance, your ramparts and raining ballista bolts into your main hallways.

Good point. Maybe they should be smart enough to realise they can dig under your wals and moat so they could pop up on the other side?

[Granite26]

They should dig in immidiatly, knocking down doors and installing catapults to shoot at your entrance, your ramparts and raining ballista bolts into your main hallways.

With tunnels as roads coming, having monsters dig onto the map should be possible.  What scares me is Wyrms digging on the the screen and collapsing your whole fortress.

I think that another requirement for this is the noise visualization.  While the grey dwarves can dig into the lower exploratory tunnels and sneak up, it's going to be hard for the gobbos to dig a real tunnel into your dorms because you should hear them coming.

I would be happy to see a gobbo sapper class that builds over moats and breaks holes in constructed walls (OK, trolls do that last)

It seems an appropriate Power Goal to have the door in the basement you guard all the time because that's where 'they' come from.

[Silverionmox]

I would limit the digging of goblins to soil, sand and soft stone. Kobolds shouldn't even get further than sand and soil. Humans and elves with the appropriate tools could reach some depth. Digging through very hard stone like granite (with a copper pick, even ) is something I would reserve for dwarves. But we'll see that when stone will be differentiated in hardness, so that the player actually would consider digging around it, making the underworld more interesting.

But for all the above goes, that they should mine slower than dwarves, require more supports, and have more risk of collapse than dwarves.

[Dwarf Fanatic]

Prehaps a 'worm sydrom?' They dig and the tunnel automatically fills up a few squares behinds, so only a few can follow...

[winner]

perhaps make it so some animals can burrow, taking into consideration the soil hardness suggestion. Can you imagine skeletal carp digging through the sand and flooding your fortress?

[ShadeJS]

I'm not a fan of digging-- 'Permanent damage' like that would really turn me off. Like the rock eaters in Nethack.

-Maybe let folks dig soft soil during a siege, and should leave a 100% of leaving a 'lump of dirt' that you could use to refill the hole. That would encourage people to fill moats...

-I think the real solution is ladders of up to 3 z-levels, siege towers of 4 or 5 z-levels, and bad guys that bring catapults and ballista on wagons (z-level one wagon, z-level two device) with ammo wagons.

That would make the sieges feel 'plenty real', and would make it a real pain to 'turtle up' (Just like in history) but wouldn't introduce 'permanent damage'.

edit: Also not having so baddies apparently honour your door setting would be good

edit: Ohh-- A battering ram that lets lesser creatures destroy constructions would be cool.

[Derakon]

"Permanent damage" is fixable by just making it so walls made out of unformed stone look like native walls.

Ladders help for dealing with walls, but how do you deal with the fortress that is entirely underground? Like, they've collapsed rock over their entranceway?

[Demonic Gophers]

I would limit the digging of goblins to soil, sand and soft stone. Kobolds shouldn't even get further than sand and soil. Humans and elves with the appropriate tools could reach some depth. Digging through very hard stone like granite (with a copper pick, even ) is something I would reserve for dwarves. But we'll see that when stone will be differentiated in hardness, so that the player actually would consider digging around it, making the underworld more interesting.

But for all the above goes, that they should mine slower than dwarves, require more supports, and have more risk of collapse than dwarves.

If anything like this is implemented, goblins should be better at tunneling than humans - almost as good as dwarves.  I don't think elves can even make picks.

[ShadeJS]

"Permanent damage" is fixable by just making it so walls made out of unformed stone look like native walls.

Ladders help for dealing with walls, but how do you deal with the fortress that is entirely underground? Like, they've collapsed rock over their entranceway?

As long as perma-damage could be avoided for soil and stone... I'd be with that...

Actually, I wouldn't mind 'pile of dirt / sand' to replace the glass making system. Then soil could be dug just like rock.

But I still want ladders, ballista, catapults, siege towers, and battering rams more [And yes I know it's not one or the other, I'm just being a brat.]