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Author Topic: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...  (Read 11880 times)

Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2008, 06:24:20 am »

Um... umiman... Would you murder someone if it would keep your family off welfare for a few months?
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umiman

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 06:55:59 am »

It would depend on the necessity. Furthermore, murder is a very risky endeavor and even if you could pull it off, it would then rely on your own personal ability to sustain guilt and maintain a normal life and at the same time managed the continued risk of discovery compared to total benefit earned from the act. Then considering the long term costs and benefits of murder compared with other, less risky methods, it's a pretty low ranking solution. But if I were presented in a situation where I'd have enough to gain and guaranteed to be untracable, where the person is either a complete stranger or a hated enemy, where if I didn't kill him, my family would be in peril, then sure. But that would be an incredibly rare situation. It would be as if it rained ostriches.

You're mistaking something though. I'm not asking if anyone is willing to kill someone to feed his family. That's silly, impractical exaggeration worthy of a middle school debate. I'm saying that he's giving away what he could use to feed his family for a cause that, while unnecessarily cold, would hardly make a difference for the receiver anyway. In that sense, if a man living in a cardboard box decides to give you $10 because you made his day brighter, even though you know that he is going to be much worse off than you better off by that act, how could you accept the money? Now suppose that man living in a cardboard box has to raise a family (for whatever reason) and lives on $1 a day. I'm sure everyone can see the dilemma in question. I'm not saying anyone is living in a cardboard box though. Just an example.

I understand that everyone is entitled to the right to donate and be charitable. We shouldn't be denied our right to assist others just because we lack the means. However, sometimes we should consider that our actions could have been used for better means and as cruel as it may sound, sometimes, the things you don't do is far worse than what you may have intended to do. A $5 donation that is instead used to take your family out is, to me, $5 far better spent.

Concerning Piracy
Here's the second part of my query. The one I'm more puzzled by. Right now, the situation as I understand it is this:

The OP has siblings who are borderline poor. He himself could potentially have financial troubles should any troubles occur to disrupt the budget.

That's how I understand it. Did I get it right?

Here's the question. "Even if we lack the means, are we not allowed to indulge ourselves in our pastimes?"

Spore costs $50. A pirated version costs nothing when downloaded. The OP is not in a situation where $50 is an easy sale as I understand it. If I'm not mistaken, even $20 for gas is a lot of money. This is $50. This money could have gone to a lot more other things, things that do far more than any mere game could do. However, just because we cannot afford such luxuries, does it mean that we aren't allowed to engage in it? A game shouldn't be a Ferrari, a seaside condo, or a diamond necklace.

Remember, this is a game, it's computer software. There are only three costs in software distribution: intellectual, distribution, and advertising. Guess which one is factored in most in the game's price? Unlike, say, refrigerators or luxury cars, there aren't any expensive parts or hours of human labour to produce one extra unit. Even more so with digital distribution.

I guess that's the all important question. Suppose this guy saves the $50 to buy textbooks for his kid. Does that mean that he's forbidden to play and enjoy Spore? It's really more of a moral question than anything and it's well worth asking yourself, even if it doesn't apply to you. I've spent a lot of days thinking about this question, for the inevitable day I foray into business myself, and one day I will be confronted with the same question when my own products go to market questioning whether or not to persecute people who "illegally" use goods produced. I won't doubt that many of you guys will too. It applies to Bay 12 Games too, when the inevitable day comes. So it's well worth asking.

Jreengus

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2008, 08:40:39 am »

It would depend on the necessity. Furthermore, murder is a very risky endeavor and even if you could pull it off, it would then rely on your own personal ability to sustain guilt and maintain a normal life and at the same time managed the continued risk of discovery compared to total benefit earned from the act. Then considering the long term costs and benefits of murder compared with other, less risky methods, it's a pretty low ranking solution. But if I were presented in a situation where I'd have enough to gain and guaranteed to be untracable, where the person is either a complete stranger or a hated enemy, where if I didn't kill him, my family would be in peril, then sure. But that would be an incredibly rare situation. It would be as if it rained ostriches.

Thankyou another person out there who thinks the way I do.
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 02:15:30 pm »

I was actually just attempting to determine whether you thought you could justify premeditated murder, umiman.  You see, most people have something that is usually called a conscience.  It's a feeling they get when they think of doing something that stops them from doing it.  While murder is significantly more extreme than software piracy, if you can't understand why someone wouldn't consider premeditated murder for their own gain then you can't be expected to understand the same about software piracy.
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Kagus

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 02:20:10 pm »

If someone is planning to kill you, and you kill them before they get a chance to, that's technically premeditated murder for your own gain.  I have no ring-a-ding-ding going off in the back of my head saying that's wrong.  Just the buzza-buzz-buzz warning of imprisonment/death and the EEEMAAAARGH! telling me I left the stove on.


EDIT:  I didn't leave the stove on.  I don't even have a stove.  Just goes to show you that you should never trust the EEEMAAARGH! when it's trying to tell you something.

Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 02:24:09 pm »

I never said anything about them intending you violence.

All I asked was if he'd murder someone to increase the prosperity of his family.  Just, some random person.
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Jreengus

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 02:28:22 pm »

Dont see why you wouldnt do it, if the circumstances he specified were true, not like you killing your relative/friend to increase the prosperity of your family if its a random stranger you dont even know them.
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2008, 02:32:44 pm »

Dont see why you wouldnt do it, if the circumstances he specified were true, not like you killing your relative/friend to increase the prosperity of your family if its a random stranger you dont even know them.

Congratulations!  The test is over!  Your alignment is: Neutral Evil
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Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 03:17:23 pm »

Yes, obviously, someone who believes in morality must be a complete idiot.  As we know the only logical way to live is to think about only yourself screw everyone else over.  That's how all great advances in human history have come about...  Oh wait. ::)
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2008, 03:23:55 pm »

Well, I personally avoided such problems by not knowing anything about spore!
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umiman

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 03:43:19 pm »

I wonder if because Ioric spent so much time flaming subject name here that he has turned into same thing... I hope someone comes back and moves this conversation back out of mindless flaming.

But it proves that trolling is contagious. Like a disease! It's actually like a zombie infection. Once they bite you, you slowly turn into a troll yourself... urgh... no... me too... *burble* Undergo Kafka's Metamorphosis and wake up one day and look into the mirror, "is what I see really me, or am I someone else?" Don't worry Ioric! I believe that you are indeed yourself. Just because the outside has changed doesn't mean the inside hasn't... oh... wait... hrmmmmm...

Hehehe. I guess the troll disease has infected me too. :D

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 05:25:35 pm »

What would've really been weird, is if the guy woke up, was accosted by giant insects, ran away screaming, and at the end you find out they were people, and he was...  This sounded a lot better and more coherent in my head.

On killing for your family's prosperity.  Why is your family more important to them and their family?  Let's say you're a dad, who makes just enough to stay afloat.  You kill a guy, securing your family's prosperity.  What about his family?  Unless he has a working wife, his family is screwed.  Even if he doesn't have a family, and makes no contribution to society, he's still a human being.  We can't put anything above human life.
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Kagus

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 05:29:07 pm »

There is nothing innately holy, sacred, or important about human life...  The meat machines our brains call home are no better or worse than those of other animals.  However, we are capable of reaching achievements that other animals cannot.  Through those achievements we earn our importance.


Human life has a base value of nil, but a potential value above most other individual animals.

umiman

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Re: Lamentations of Kogan, or, I wish I had spent it supporting Bay 12...
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2008, 05:44:20 pm »

What would've really been weird, is if the guy woke up, was accosted by giant insects, ran away screaming, and at the end you find out they were people, and he was...  This sounded a lot better and more coherent in my head.

On killing for your family's prosperity.  Why is your family more important to them and their family?  Let's say you're a dad, who makes just enough to stay afloat.  You kill a guy, securing your family's prosperity.  What about his family?  Unless he has a working wife, his family is screwed.  Even if he doesn't have a family, and makes no contribution to society, he's still a human being.  We can't put anything above human life.
The question wasn't about killing someone else to secure your family's security. The chances of that happening is close to nil and even then, there are so many more things to consider before murder becomes a viable option. As I said earlier, every time someone attempts to make you feel guilty by putting a stupidly unreasonable example as an excuse, in this case, murder, it's pointless to argue it. It's like asking you to choose between shooting man A and shooting man B or you die. What's the frigging point? It's not going to happen and there's not much point to debating it because it ain't gonna happen. Even the person who introduced this scenario admitted it was all a test to prove I'm evil.

These sort of questions are completely loaded. There's no right answer. I could tell you right now that when you eat vegetables, someone else who is starving who could've eaten that vegetable by some strange act of chaos theory would have survived. So you killed him. Get my point? By eating that plant, you caused a cow to die. By shooting that man, you killed his kids. By not shooting that man, you kill your kids. There is no way to answer these questions simply because it's unreasonable to ask them in the first place. I can give you more examples of these kind of silly questions: There's a poisoned lobster. If you eat it, you will die. If you don't eat it, you will starve to death. This chicken holds the cradle of all life. If you kill it, you will cease to exist. If you don't, you will be raped and tortured as a kid.

I'm sure you can see that bothering to answer such questions is a futile act.
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