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[Klendt]

Interestingly enough, European school of swordsmanship also focused on one-hit-kill approach when it comes to unarmoured fighting. When it comes to fighting in armour, though, it was a comes to fighting in armour the emphasis was on bringing the opponent to the ground as quickly as possible, so you could say it was focused on two-hit-kill:p

The media representation of medieval European swordsmanship is highly inaccurate and has led many of us to believe in untruthful stereotypes. If you want a more accurate representation of European swordfighting philosophy, look up some Fechtbuchs.

That's probably because european swordsmanship dwindled down so comparatively soon thanks to the industrial revolution. Wouldn't ALL swordfights (by juxtaposition) look like stage productions when you could just shoot the guy? Of course, it also helps that so few people were actually learned in the art when that funny little thing called literacy rolled around.

Bah! The ultimate school of combat is stage fencing. The one where you flail your weapon around wildly, attempting to hit your opponent's weapon in a harmless but dramatic manner. Bonus points for wittily taunting your opponent.

Ah, I see you are a devoted follower of Sir Flynn.

[MuonDecay]

The PBS program NOVA has recently been airing a special all about the katana, it's a good primer for the curious, and clears up some misconceptions.

One thing to note: the ones Japanese soldiers carried in WWII were mass-produced and of low quality, rumors about their high quality of craftsmanship and subsequent uberswordness are baffling at best, the things were churned out on an industrial scale with little regard for quality beyond being able to cut people with them.

[Aqizzar]

Aw man, I missed a zombie argument?  Damn you Fourth of July.

Oh well.  For the dozen or so people who haven't seen it, here's Cracked.com's list of ways a zombie apocolypse could happen.  Me?  I'd just get a sailboat and some line.  And no riders.


The legends about the quality of katanas comes from the fact that they were invented after Japan's medieval period of mass warfare had largely ended.  The katana is dueling weapon and was the sole province of a warrior-nobility who could afford the finest metal and smiths.  Hence, every surviving example was a masterpeice of craftsmanship, because there was never call for making anything less.

Nobody remembers the crappy weapons of ordinary soldiers - those mass produced iron matchetes of WWII were badges of manufactured nationalism, and were just recent enough that they're still around to look at.

[umiman]

Wow... I hope no one actually believes anything on that list. Should be a warning there: "Gullible people look elsewhere".

[Makrond]

Meh, it's Cracked.com... you're not supposed to take anything there seriously.

Just don't say they didn't warn you.

[Mercanthyr]

Mad Cow disease causes zombie-like behavior in humans(Haha!  I don't eat meat!), and between 35 and 60% of the world's population has been infected with toxoplasma gondii, which severely affects the behavior of rats, causing them to become suicidally attracted to cats, and has been linked to mental illness.

The zombies are coming.

actually, you should know that they use cow bones to bleach sugar, so if you consume refined sugar in any way, you are just as susceptible to mad cow disease. bwahahahahahaha

[Romantic Warrior]

1: The blade is curved. This focuses all the energy of the wielder's swing onto a single point, allowing it to more easily slice through... well, anything. The katana was designed during an era where heavy wooden armor was overwhelmingly common, so the katana is almost specifically made to get through said armor. Hence the curve. Normally curved blades are smaller, but the katana is a notable exception.

As already noted, curved swords are not for penetrating armor. Plus, Samurai armor was laquered steel. I really don't know how this wooden armor stuff started.

2. The katana is usually wielded two-handed. One hand on top of the hilt pushes forward, the other hand on the bottom of the hilt pulls back. This provides an overwhelming amount of force compared to other swords, again facilitating armor piercing.

Not unique to the katana. Any sword that can be wielded with two hands has this advantage.

3. The katana is heavier and harder to wield than a regular sword. Heavy training is required to use one, and a lifetime has to be spent to master it.

There is nothing that makes a katana harder to use than a comparable two handed sword. The weight range for both western and eastern swords is comparable: 1.5-4 pounds.

Katana are also more manoeuverable, due to the fact that the point of balance is a mere 5" from the tsuba or crossguard. (Some Western swords can be anywhere up to 8-10"!)

There were swords with a center of gravity that far forward. There were also swords with a much, much closer CoG. This sword is an exacting reproduction of a medieval longsword. The center of balance is 2" from the guard. Another sword, this one with the PoB at 3.5". If you'd like to see a real antique, here is one with a PoB less than 1" from the guard. A sword from the 13th century with a PoB at 3.7". 2.5" on this one. The katana isn't any more maneuverable. (More swords can be seen at http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/swords.htm, click the English button and then "Virtual Museum.")

Most swords were blunt-ish

Medieval swords were rarely razor edged, because it wasn't necessary, but they were not blunt. This is obvious if you look at the edge of a medieval sword, especially one in good condition. They are rarely razor sharp but the edge geometry is anything but blunt. Read up on this here.

[Makrond]

Heh...

the blade is very vibration-prone

That's the problem with swords that have a center of gravity less than ~3" from the hilt.

Plus it's rusty. And missing a fair bit of the tip.

The 'exacting replica' from Albion has the point of balance 9cm from the tip... that's nearly 4".

The other Albion sword is designed specifically to be manoeuverable (it's a fencing sword), which honestly, aren't as durable as their English counterparts.

As for the others, I was referring to a katana without a bo-hi (fuller). Obviously, taking a significant amount of weight out of the katana will make it much better.

That said, I agree that katana don't have mega-super-powerful cutting abilities, or super-fast-quickness-of-agility. But my katana at least are easier to use than my various Western swords. Maybe it's also because I like having that one-and-a-half hander thing going (I'm also a fan of bastard swords).

Also, as a random note, it can sometimes be considered impolite to add something to a discussion about swords when the thread has moved on to zombies.

[Romantic Warrior]

Plus it's rusty. And missing a fair bit of the tip.

Less than two inches, which I doubt would make a huge difference. Even if it did, that's not a problem with several of the other swords.

The 'exacting replica' from Albion has the point of balance 9cm from the tip... that's nearly 4".

Is that an argument that is isn't an exacting replica? If so,

it's rusty

. An accurate reproduction would be slightly altered from the rusty original... unless of course rust makes no difference. It's still got a PoB in the 5" range.

The other Albion sword is designed specifically to be manoeuverable

Yes, I believe that's the idea. Strange that.

As for the others, I was referring to a katana without a bo-hi (fuller). Obviously, taking a significant amount of weight out of the katana will make it much better.

Is there always a way to make them superior to western swords or is there a limit?

But my katana at least are easier to use than my various Western swords.

Which ones do you have? Are they any good? Can I have them? For scientific purposes, of course.

Also, as a random note, it can sometimes be considered impolite to add something to a discussion about swords when the thread has moved on to zombies.

You just don't understand. Besides, it was impolite to derail the sword discussion to zombies. And the topic wasn't even about swords. It's a circle of impolition.

[Specialist290]

I still stand by my statement that the quality of the wielder is more important than the quality of the sword.

[Kagus]

People, people, you're all missing the big picture.  You can discuss and bicker over swords as much as you like, but swords are and always will be swords.  Katanas will be overrated for as long as Westerners keep looking east, and European sword knowledge will be dominated by D&D.


Alright, so I just felt the need to break up the monotony by adding an axe.  I've found that axes will often break up monotony.  But axe discussion is slightly damned, because everyone knows where the center of balance is, and the bearded axe trumps everything else.

So, in light of that revelation, I am going to toss Viking swords into the mix and see how the experts discuss their pros and cons in relation to other swords, European or otherwise.

[Neoskel]

I still stand by my statement that the quality of the wielder is more important than the quality of the sword.

THIS. Katanas are awesome cuz samurai are awesome, not the other way around.

[Klendt]

I can assure all you fine gentlemen that you do NOT want to mix katana discussion with zombie discussion. The last time I saw that on a forum, it degenerated in the span of six hours into a 400 post flamewar. A lot of it had to do with people bringing up suicidal weapons like cricket bats and guitars in a dead serious manner, stating that they were better than swords in general, of course, but let me emphasize again that the Zeds are NOT a good direction to go.
And if any of you lot so much as THINKS the word "crowbar", I'm gonna mail you a dead cat.

[Cthulhu]

I think we all need to think about the greatest zombie killer of all time.

Gordon Mo'****ing Freeman.

He broke out that crowbar, started bashing necrotics left and right, slow fast, poisonous, didn't matter.  He bashed them all into oblivion.  So what if he's an MIT graduate with a dorky beard and a girlfriend who was a toddler when he first met her, he doesn't take prisoners.

CROWBARCROWBARCROWBAR

Really, when it comes to zombies, there's no right weapon.  If you're fighting zombies, the jar of AIDS has hit the fan, and you need to accept that nothing is really going to give you a definable edge.

[Neoskel]

Dude, chainsaw-hand trumps crowbar.