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[PTTG??]

Listening to the RPPR Interview, And I decided that we need a think tank on how to handle animal/pet food needs. The options as I see them are:

- No food is needed : as is now; simple, but unrealistic and leads to catsplosions.

- Animals need to eat like dwarves : kinda realistic, simple to design, but they WILL eat you out of your fortress and holme.

-Animals scrounge : i.e., cats live off of vermin, herbivores graze grass tiles->dirt, prolly underground herbivores graze lichen off rocks. Dogs might need normal meat. This is prolly most realistic, but also complex to implement.

What are some other options we have? What details/tags would be needed?

[Surma]

As Toady mentioned, if cats ate vermin they would quickly depopulate the map of all vermin, and would subsequently starve.

The herbivores have it easiest. If Toady were to implements them eating grass and foliage and what not, and finds that they're defoliating the land quicker than it replenishes, just have the grass grow faster. Of course, perhaps we could farm hay or grains for horses and cows, etc.

Dogs should eat just about anything including, but not limited to, chunks, fat and whatever other [butcherable_nonstandard] things that would make sense.

[herbivore] tags and the like would be quickest. Perhaps a [verminivore] tag?  :p

I should probably spend a few days thinking about this to make a more competent reply. =\

[Neonivek]

I probably should read the interview...

I think it should be a real threat for animals to eat you out of house and home... give you a reason to sell off animals and butcher and it and make you seriously put thought into what animals your bringing with you.

Afterall, an Oxen may help farms but they eat over 6 times that of an ordinary person (Which is one of the major reasons why animals are expencive, even today).

He also could expand some animals into what is known as Omnivourious opportunists (I cannot spell it), or basically... They are able to eat fruits and vegetables but it isnt their main diet... For example Wolves have been known to eat fruit (Heck my small dog once devoured a yellow pepper)

To make eating you out of house and home less deadly... I guess he could add a "Troph" (however you spell that) furnature... that when food is placed inside it becomes "Animal Feed" and is worth many times what it would be to a dwarf. (So like a Plump Helmet could become 5 animal feed)
-As an addition: Perhaps a fast growing plant that dwarf can't eat but animals love could also work...

Also as another method you could also be able to place caps on population where your dwarves will slaughter animals that go over the cap allowing you to reasonably run meat/leather farms without too much effort. the AI should also kill the gender with the highest population first so you never run out.
-And as your food stores becomes more plentiful you could be able to support more animals and thus they will grow faster thus increasing production even further.

Though I guess this can all wait until Toady impliments a use for animals other then Hunting/War dogs and minor pets. (In which I am sure there is a HUGE list)

[ May 20, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[Marigi]

Dogs are actually omnivores they will eat plants in fact in a lot of cases they prefer it but the dog food companies don't even encourage it except for some.

[Neonivek]

Carnivour doesn't mean they can't eat plants... In fact a lot of carnivours do. (Heck Zebras are herbivours but they eat a lot of insects)

Carnivour means the bulk of their diet comes from meat. A lot of vegetables/fruits that dogs will eat, will make them quickly ill in excess.

Though Ill have to check if Dogs are Omnivours, I forget... Makes sense to me considering that Most dogfood I ever saw has plants in it.

[ May 20, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[ May 20, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[Keizo]

My dog eats whatever I do. He gets almost all of his food in the form of scraps off my family's plates. (Which is wrong, I know, but it's what he wants.) I always figured dwarves fed their cats and dogs that way too.

As for cows and other large livestock, it'd be cool to have them graze. You'd get much more of a "farm" feel that way, and you could build fences around plots of grass to protect them and control their diet. It'd make more sense than having the buggers crowd up my dining hall which is all they seem to want to do now.

[Surma]

quote:Originally posted by Keizo:
My dog eats whatever I do. He gets almost all of his food in the form of scraps off my family's plates. (Which is wrong, I know, but it's what he wants.) I always figured dwarves fed their cats and dogs that way too.

Meh, it's fine for him. Just make sure he eats kibble of some type to balance it out. Dogs are opportunists, they'll eat what ever they can.

According to the always correct fount of knowledge Wikipedia.org (I'm being ironic, if you didn't notice) Dogs can be classified as either omnivores or carnivores. /dogs#Nutrition

From the same link:

quote:dog is neither dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements. Dogs are able to healthily digest a variety of foods including vegetables and grains, and in fact dogs can consume a large proportion of these in their diet.

That being said, Dogs are disgusting, though I still love them.

Edited for accuracy.

[ May 20, 2008: Message edited by: Surma ]

[Neonivek]

"they'll eat what ever they can"

It should be noted however that dogs are so sensative to diet changes that they have been known to get sick just by changing their dogfood.

They are more healthy and happy eating consistantly then something different everyday.

Whoa this is getting off topic...

[LeoLeonardoIII]

From my experience, cats are finicky and will eat mostly meat and fish given the chance. They eat grass to help them puke, which they do far more often than DF models.
Dogs will eat anything that smells like it might not kill them. My dog eats snow peas, lint, her blanket, hair, dog food, cheerios, toilet paper tubes, grass, other dogs' poop, etc. I agree with dogs eating fat, chunks, tallow, and so forth. I think dogs should even try out eating stuff like charcoal once or twice before realizing it isn't good to eat. All puppies and unattached untrained dogs should also chew on unattended leather/cloth items not kept in containers.

Typically pigs (strangely absent from DF?) are fed scraps deemed inedible by people. So it might be appropriate for a finished meal to give out a seed/bone/shell if appropriate and also a little purple "food scraps" that opportunistic scavengers will eat. Including vermin. Or dwarves will toss them into a nearby Trough and animals will hang around areas with Troughs in them.

So maybe something a little like-a this:

Scavenger: Looks for remains, food scraps, and hangs around refuse stockpiles and Troughs.

Herbivore: Chomps down grass tiles (clear down to the clay), shrubs, and in some cases denudes a tree (so it looks like a leafless winter tree). Hangs around grassy parts and browses nearby Troughs.

Carnivore: Kills vermin (even bears will snack on a squirrel or something given the opportunity) and small animals. Will eat unrotten animal parts and rotten ones if starving.

Also I'd like to point out that most livestock these days is fed stuff that's not fit for human consumption. And it's been like that for a while. So food parts that don't show up to dwarves right now like the chaff and stalks from cave wheat would be fed to the animals. You could have "fodder" appear when food is processed in a farmer's workshop.

[Dasleah]

Dogs are omnivores and Pandas are carnivores (well, carnivora). Fun fact.

Anyway, for  stock animals (like the Cow, Horse, etc) I'd like to see the ability to mark a Grazing area (like you designate a stockpile) and a Shepard labour. The Sherpard would move the creatures to the Grazing area and guard them, and more or less the animals would stay there or follow the Shepard around. Every animal would have a preferred grazing area - Cows would like grass, but some would prefer shrubs or trees or the like. It would also be nice if these Grazing areas were seasonal - ie, like crops, you could designate that some would only be 'active' in Summer or Spring.

I would say that the happier a cow is, and the more effective the Shepard is at his job, the exact number of grass tiles needed per animal would decrease. Say, a normal Cow and some random peasant just selected to be a Shepard would need 10 grass tiles per season to keep that cow happy (and thus produce better quality milk, cheese, meat, and leather) A Legendary Shepard would only have a 1 tile per season upkeep per animal.

Of course, for those winter months, you could 'station' the Shepard underground, in a Hay stockpile, so that the animals have something to eat if your map is too cold.

As for cats, I say give them a [SCAVENGER] tag or something. They eat vermin but would also go fish for themselves if they're hungry. Or eat remains or chunks and the like. Cats are picky, god yes (I have 4, I swear somebody has designated a stockpile on my house), but they'll eat when they get hungry. I'd also suggest that [SCAVENGER] implies [BONECARN] but it doesn't give them happy thoughts and sustains them less.

Well, those are just a few of my suggestions.

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, one solution to the problem, albeit not the most realistic, is to make food for animals optional.  However, choosing not to feed the animals means they stop reproducing.

-Angry Lawyer

[Dasleah]

Hmmm... elegant. I like it.

[Jhoosier]

If we'd have to grow food for animals to eat, there should be some sort of extra benefit to butchering their meat.  Ie, lots of meat is produced, it's very valuable, more prepared meals can be created, etc.  There wouldn't be any point in farming feed for animals when I could just grow plump helmets and eat directly.  I'm not that concerned with my dwarves' feelings, either.

Cats and dogs maybe should be left as is, we can assume they'd eat table scraps and catch small vermin inside/outside to eat.

[Surma]

Actually, once disease is in, Dwarves should get sick from a diet of purely plump helmets (or enter other food item here). They should require a variety of foods. As for booze only diets, meh, their Dwarves.  

[Grek]

quote:Originally posted by Surma:
<STRONG>Actually, once disease is in, Dwarves should get sick from a diet of purely plump helmets (or enter other food item here). They should require a variety of foods. As for booze only diets, meh, their Dwarves.   </STRONG>

I imagine that dwarf that drinks booze instead of eating would fair as well as a human that drinks sugarwater instead of food.

Dwarven livestock would be mostly domesticated cave fish and cave shrimp/lobster. Keeping large mammals would be too expensive.