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Author Topic: Its An Ecologist's World  (Read 3991 times)

umiman

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 11:05:00 pm »

Your imaginary plants seem very, very real. Kudos!

Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 11:55:00 pm »

Hmmm... Penguinofhonor may be right.  If a plant can be planted in all seasons, though, should not it be able to carry over from one season to the next?

The answer: I don't know.  I will have to test this... If penguin is right, and a season, while made of a certain number small units, still counts as a discrete unit defining whether something can be grown or not, then many of the plants will need major adjustments or simply be invalid.
If, however, the ability to be planted in two adjacent seasons would allow it to carry over from one season to the next, then they are still viable, and must just be planted early to get a harvest in, as many plants are...

Does anybody know which is the case?  Has anyone tried them out and had trouble with the timing because some would take more then a season?  Or does anyone simply know from experience with the other plants already in the system?  Or are they able to grow so long as they could grow in the following season as well?

I am unfortunately going to be busy with school starting and such for a few days to test it out in the immediate future.  As I put in an earlier post, I only tried some of them to make sure my plants worked, and they were some of the ones which are viable within a single season: I always had them too sparse and in too many habitats to try all (I would have put them in one place and made them common so I could find them easily and try them all out, but again, I only just started putting these in writing, and just got back from CR like saturday night, so I haven't had time to do this yet).

And no, I wasn't going to be compining them into a single raw file.  I was just going to post things here as I make them, so people can take them all or simply take the ones they like, or modify them as they see fit/pleasing.

[ January 29, 2008: Message edited by: Pickerel ]

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Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2008, 10:55:00 pm »

(SIGH)
Sorry guys.  You say you like the plants, but there's a problem.  I finally got around to going to some of the more obscure habitats, and I am finding that they don't work.  

The problem: Even though, for plants, there exists a token for Biome Mountain, and Biome Tundra, and Biome Glacier, they will, as far as I can find, never actually be found there.  Those habitats must not be set up to place plants on world generation, I guess.

If any of you can find evidence to the contrary, or if any of you know how I can fix this problem, please help me out.  Many of the plant concepts are useless without the ability to have them in these places.

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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2008, 05:26:00 pm »

I made sea weed and cliff weed back in 33a or so to test how ocean and mountain plants worked and found that they'd sometimes grow in sandy areas on region borders.  You can't grow normal plants in those small border regions because they're considered part of the mountain (or whatever) biome.  I doubt you can find glacier plants, though, since I think glaciers only border tundra, which grows little to nothing anyway.
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Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2008, 06:02:00 pm »

Hmmm... well I had only one idea for glacier plants, because there are things that grow in just snow, so I will scrap that, and try looking at the edge, where, for example, the mountain lacking plants meets the plain... I thank you much for the information!  You may very well have single handedly saved this project.  Now to go test...
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Chariot

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2008, 02:53:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Earthquake Damage:
<STRONG>I doubt you can find glacier plants, though, since I think glaciers only border tundra, which grows little to nothing anyway.</STRONG>

you can find glaciers bordering forests and plains just fine, see here for example

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Anvilsmith

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 08:27:00 am »

Pickerel, I applaud your efforts. I used to write up fantasy plants and animals just for fun for the last several years. Indeed, I'm now writing descriptions for Athasian animals as part of Darksun MUD - and I might do the same for a Dwarf Fortress mod.

In my humble opinion, it's important that you design your plants around specific functions, rather than writing them in because they also exist in the real world. As a biochemistry student, I can't tell a poplar from a birch, and I wouldn't really care what they looked like so long as they behaved exactly the same.

But if one has silvery-colored wood on the inside, and the other can be turned into a "vial of sap" at the alchemist's lab, then things start getting interesting.

Unfortunately, Dwarf Fortress' "modding" isn't very flexible, and usually provides only aesthetic changes. I look forward to seeing what you can do with the system, though.

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Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 01:29:00 pm »

I agree, function is important.  Only some of those above exist in the real world.  Furfurmint, for example, I made up based on theoretical convergence of some leaf to have a protective fluff, like many desert plants, for protection against the sun.  The benefit: it is also a mint-like plant, thus is edible (though small) and has a useful extract.  I am trying not just for diversity of use, though, as mentioned, but for diversity of ecology.  I am also trying to keep it balanced: tundras and glaciers are supposed to be hard, so perhaps I add cladina and now something can be grown in the tundra, but it is still not going to change the difficulty much, because it is slow going, and will never be high value.  Know what I mean?  
And I also set all of them to have very low frequency (well, as low as it goes, 1) (which I hope equates to abundance, I still need to test things to figure it out) so that no matter what habitat is chosen, and how many plants can be found there, one will have trouble getting more then a few of them, so each fortress has a different variety.  For example, one fortress might find opuntia and get a sugar operation going, while another ends up making tequila.  because of the differences in growth time to harvest, it changes the ecology of the fort as well.  I might even equate the low frequency to the serendipity or insight required, on occasion, to suddenly recognize use of common plants otherwise thought useless and ignored.
Again, one of the big things I am going for is ecological diversity: The previous plants in the raws had about the same growth time, and relatively similar traits, and only a few were particularly habitat specific... but there were various well known habitats in which plants of unrepresented ecologies would exist.  The Armok's Manna is a mixture of rock tripe which helped sustain Washington when stuck at... I think it was valley forge?  And there weren't any cacti... I added subsistence foods for difficult places, novelty foods which might seem unbalanced because they can make impressively priced products but then, some things are like that (historically, some crops, despite being easy to raise, have had prices only nobility could afford on the market. It happens), and some things with more primary colonizer ecologies (think dandaelion.  Example, my muleraddish.  So named because raddishes usually have that sort of ecology).  So particular uses isn't necessarily the important part of this mod, so much as representing useful plants with deviant ecologies.  Longer lives then a season, shorter perhaps, odd habitats, ect.  Though I don't shy from throwing in stuff just for fun.
Keep in mind, I don't care if people want to do whatever they want with these plants.  Modify them, use them, not use them, twink them out, give them all dye colors.  Take them and modify them.  In fact, take them, modify them, and post them here, along with your own!  This thread can be for many people to post interesting plants.  One other person, above, was going to be posting some things as well, it said.
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Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2008, 10:39:00 pm »

Update on the growing of long-lived plants:

Okay, if the information as far as GROWDUR goes in the old wiki is still valid, then a season is 1008 units long. http://archive.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Plant_Tokens
This is pertinent because:
I played my fortress with my plants in it, and had a mountain fortress.  I managed to acquire some Armok's Manna, and have now successfully grown it.  It takes 1100 time units to mature, which is more then a season... YEAH!  So long as the growing season of the plant does not end (for example, I probably wouldn;t be able to grow a one-season plant with a duration of more then 1008 units) one can still plant a plant, and it will carry over from season to season without harm.  So a year-round plant will be able to be planted just fine year round, even if it would span several seasons, or even several years I would conjecture.

Having confirmed that, I can proceed to continue creating my little plants... sorry for the delay, had to just figure that out.  It's all good.

Also, I confirmed what I was told above, about the plants in question existing at the borders between the places where they can exist, and where they cannot.  Thus my Armok's Mana was found directly at the border between my bleak mountain and my tropical grassland.  It was perfectly able to grow in my farm on the bleak mountain, though (in fact, it was the only thing that grew aboveground there that I had).  

Finally, I went ahead and changed them all back to abundance 5, rather then 1, because inevitably the abundance didn't matter too much after starting out.  Within the 3 years that I played, I already owned many of each plant it was possible for me to grow, and some that it was not possible therein.  Because of merchants.  They bring along, as randomly as usual, many of the plants I am modding in, and make use of the woods too.  Thus it is sort of useless for me to put them as particularly uncommon for the purpose of ensuring unique fort cultivars: the merchants wil just bring it all anyway.

[ February 03, 2008: Message edited by: Pickerel ]

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Torak

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2008, 11:10:00 pm »

To make your mod more accessible, you could put all the plant entries in a [CODE] format in the first post, to lessen the time it take to add your large amount of plants one-by-one.
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Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2008, 01:26:00 am »

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean... It already is in the correct format.  If one wants all the plants, they could just copy and paste the whole thing...

Do you mean without my excessively verbose commentary?  I will make a compilation post without the commentary... Though if you put the commentary in the file, too, it doesn't change anything.  The game only reads things in the brackets [ECT] like so, so the commentary does not get in the way.  There's several cases where, in the raws, Toady himself has commentary like that (though never so lengthy as my own): it doesn't effect a thing.  In fact, what you see there is exactly how I have it in my raw file, lengthy commentary and all, and I confirmed today that everything right down to my last plant works fine...

Anyway, yeah, it might be good if I make a compilation.  Though I am going to keep grouped things separate (Trees in a seperate post from Plants in a separate post from Ants, ect.)

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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2008, 06:41:00 am »

I'm currently enjoying the new plants.  More variety, more farmable biomes.  Gotta love it.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2008, 06:42:00 pm »

I'll try this. Dandelions away!

code:
[MATGLOSS_PLANT :DANDELION]
[TILE:34][COLOR:6:0:1]
[NAME:dandelion][NAME_PLURAL:dandelions]
[GROWDUR:300][VALUE:2]
[LEAVES:3]
[DRINK:dandelion wine:5:0:0]
[DRINKVALUE:2]
[SEEDNAME:dandelion puffs][SEED:7:0:1]
[GENPOWER:1]
[SPRING][SUMMER][AUTUMN][WINTER]
[FREQUENCY:5]
[CLUSTERSIZE:5]
[EDIBLE_VERMIN]
[EDIBLE_RAW]
[EDIBLE_WHENCOOKED]
[PREFSTRING :puffs]
[PREFSTRING:bitter flavor]
[WET][DRY][BIOME:ANY_TEMPERATE]

Dandelion wine is totally real. Also, there may be a conflict between the leaves tag and the edible raw tag. Needs testing.

[ February 10, 2008: Message edited by: penguinofhonor ]

[ February 12, 2008: Message edited by: penguinofhonor ]

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Pickerel

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2008, 10:15:00 pm »

Dad gum, I too had dandaelions in the works ^.^  Beat me to it.
And yeah, I know of dandaelion wine.  We made it in the physics department once.  I was in charge of collecting the dandaelions.  We kept it in the cabinet below the sinks but were perpetually afraid of the janitor throwing it out, and I believe it was eventually relocated to my friend's house in town, where they already were brewing their own of various other things, everything from beers to rum.

While I was at that task, though, I noticed that other sweet smelling flowers might work: cherry blossoms.  So I stripped the trees outside the physics wing of their blossoms.  Unfortunately, they didn't smell like anything special.  At that moment...  I managed to avoid having the person making the wines call them useless, and by the next day the petals had a very distinct cherry smell to them!  So we did indeed try them.  It ended up being one of the best wines the person had ever tasted.

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penguinofhonor

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Re: Its An Ecologist's World
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2008, 11:08:00 pm »

"Dandaelions"? Where do you live to get this spelling?
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