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Author Topic: A Better Goblin Mod  (Read 29828 times)

MuonDecay

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2008, 05:15:40 am »

This wouldn't happen to be mod-base compatible, would it?

That would be... excellent.
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umiman

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2008, 05:50:51 am »

We'll see. I'm pretty busy these few days preparing for my trip to Japan and to Canada (again), so it'll be awhile. I know it isn't too hard though, as I've used modbase before.

MuonDecay

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2008, 06:33:54 am »

We'll see. I'm pretty busy these few days preparing for my trip to Japan and to Canada (again), so it'll be awhile. I know it isn't too hard though, as I've used modbase before.

Well with the multiple options the mod offers, it does seem like a prime candidate for use with modbase, though I'm perfectly willing to wait and see if you have time to convert it in the future.

In the meantime, there's thankfully a new version out which is a great excuse to simply install the mod manually in a new DF directory.

I can just imagine an adventurer trying to attack a tower full of the more insanely tough goblins. In fact, I may just have to get myself slaughtered doing just that!
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Paulus Fahlstrom

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2008, 11:28:45 am »

Heh, well, I've read this thread a few times before I decided to take on the Ender goblin challenge. I'm no modder but I'll be posting what I've learned. I took version 40d and put in the enger goblins (with gear because if I kill one I'm surely taking his gear) before the world gen. I started my fortress at year 200 so that there was a chance other civ's would have survived. I also took a look at a few things. The enders now have a damblock of 50. They're also flying building destroyers. They can't be stunned, give in to pain, don't need to breathe, don't bleed and a bunch of other nasty stuff which makes most weapons useless against them. The only chance of truly doing damage is supposedly with adamantine weapons or perhaps an artifact steel one. The weapons also should preferrably be high quality.

Now, the first task is simply surviving in an ender world. Which means you need a fortress that ideally can prevent access for them while letting you get out for fresh air if possible.

My first difficulties lay in that apparently despite their racial tags... Enders have merchants.



Obviously I had to reload and tear down my trading Depot before the merchants came.

But it does have it's benefits. It gives me 'friendly' units to test my defenses on.

I've found that even flying building destroyers can't cross a lava moat if there is a closed floodgate on the other side. I'm not positive and I still need to test this but I suspect that they need to be standing on solid ground for the building destroyer tag to function. I'll be checking this out soon enough. It's either that or it's something more basic that I've read about that prevents even flying units from pathing somewhere where ground units cannot path. In any case, a retractable bridge, floodgate, lavamoat combo seems to do the trick and my fortress is now safe from unwanted intrusion. I suspect if it's the latter that it would work with a water-filled moat as well, even though technically enders can survive just fine underwater. Keep in mind that the entire fortress is underground. Deep underground.

Fortuitously for me one of the ender goblin merchants went beserk and rampaged almost every living thing on the surface before finding the last group of troglodytes in the bottomless pit where he remains. With him there no more goblin merchants have come, finally allowing me to trade with the other races.

Now, I know adamantine weapons work on enders since I managed to kill one on a test run with them, but I didn't take screen shots or anything so I'll post more once I get another confirmed kill. My goal is still to take out an Ender goblin siege and I've got a variety of death-traps to do it with. Unfortunately, one I came up with involved the use of dumping water on them from a storage tank above an open maze and having it freeze with them in it. That requires a freezing biome which I'm not in. The other possibility with that, should the water freeze instantly upon leaving the holding tank was to simply use it to crush them beneath a huge ice-cube, but again, no freezing. My other attempts to test things out can only continue now once I've killed off the merchant and I'm still undergoing training and whatnot. I capped my initial population at 14 for the first 6 years to get my fortress running, then capped it at 25 for the next few to get a strong military base. Now I'll begin ramping up to 80 so I can get sieges here. Wish me luck!
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umiman

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2008, 01:53:53 pm »

Have fun!

Yeah, I can't really do anything about the strange trading behaviour right now. So until we can adjust these settings better, I don't think I have the time to go back and rewrite everything.

Someone mentioned that if you want them to attack, you could take away their ability to speak. Seems to set them on perma-war mode. I believe the tag to remove is [CAN_SPEAK].

Earthquake Damage

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2008, 08:26:30 pm »

INTELLIGENT implies CAN_CIV, CAN_LEARN, and CAN_SPEAK.  You'll want to replace INTELLIGENT with CAN_CIV and CAN_LEARN.

Be warned that warring Ender goblins will probably destroy all other civs in short order during world gen.  You should probably set the start year to 50 at the most in the world gen options.
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inaluct

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2008, 11:33:08 pm »

Damn, I want to try an Ender goblin siege now. I think I might be able to stop it if I could engineer a cave-in that would sweep anything caught up in it off the map.

Of course, then I would have a massive hole leading to the center of the earth somewhere on my map, but I think I know how I engineer it. I think it'll try it on normal goblins first, though. :P
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Paulus Fahlstrom

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2008, 06:26:25 pm »

All right... here's what I've learned from my experiences with Enders.

They are a great challenge!

They are NOT impossible to kill. Just very difficult.

Considering their abilities, no stun, no tire, no bleed, etc. I looked at the various weapons and what would be needed to kill one. First, let me say, the bezerk merchant left, allowing further Ender merchants to test my defenses. With my drawbridge and floodgates up they come up to the edge but don't get in. For some reason after that they spotted a door I had been using to contain my magma in a nice small area and decided that they wanted to destroy it. So they hopped down into the magma and obliterated my door. No biggie for me. It just led to the moat of my first trap chamber. Since I had a magma pocket and therefore a limited amount of magma I had wanted it contained. Still, no biggie. But note this:

Enders die in Magma



Every time they came afterwards they'd hop right on down into it and all kill themselves as soon as they'd arrive. I'm not completely sure why. I suspect the pathing route is quicker through the magma. But it still kills them. Perhaps removing the [Magmavision] tag or whatever would resolve this. I'm not completely sure. I'm on year 11 of my fortress and approaching the 80 dwarf limit needed for sieges and I'm all geared up and ready.

Still, I'm not sure they'll come, since the only civ's I'm aware of are at peace with me. Unfortunately. I can only hope that it'll happen anyways. Several of the ender merchants are flying at the edge of the map, melancholy or raving mad, but they won't leave. They're also 'friendly' so I can't attack. So for now, no more merchants until I figure out how to get them to leave or kill them. Maybe I'll try building a platform above them...

In any case, back to the weapon analysis. By my estimation it would take at least a well-crafted adamantine weapon to bypass their damblock of 50. In any case, every single dwarf in my fortress is trained in weaponsmithing and no other skills that might be used (where possible). Only two of my initial seven handle all crafting jobs. Due to this every artifact I've gotten so far has been an adamantine weapon. Now, since internal damage does nothing... crossbows and spears are absolutely useless. Maces and hammers only stand a chance of a kill on a critical to the upper torso, possibly the lower torso and head. Battle axes and swords are my preferred choice, but since swords have a critical boost and that's what's needed for actual kills all my guys are trained in the use of swords. Swords do less damage than axes but the important point is to get a critical that stands a chance to sever a body part. Enders without arms can't use them to attack. Or throw fireballs. (shudder)

Because of the importance of training and good weapons I've got 20 champions that are legendary in sword, shield and armor use. They've all got exceptional or masterwork adamantine swords. All have good steel chain/plate armor. Except my original five. They're legendary miners/engravers/pump-operators on top of the others and have been training with copper weapons for eight years. They made champion after about a year and a half of training. Due to the nature of my defenses, all goblins are funneled through a single staircase into the middle of a room where my soldiers will be stationed, minimizing the visibility and potential for fireballs. Additionally I've got cages of war dogs to be released to help provide fodder.

Granted, I still wanted to be sure this would work so I saved, abandoned the fort and started an adventurer, going to claim my artifact weapons and adamantine armor from my fort before attacking an ender goblin fort. What fun I had! Granted, fireballs suck, but other than that it was pretty reasonable. Firebreath it may be noted can be blocked with a shield. I did not train up my guy to uber stats, rather I just got him the best armor and weapons possible and went and had fun. Here are the results.





As you can tell, it's not so much the skill that's required, but the equipment. Therefore I'm confident that put in the hands of my elite soldiers the adamantine weapons and armor (enough armor to fully outfit the original 5 at least, plus whatever I can get *Below* which I've not done yet.)
will be sufficient to kill Enders in a siege setting. As an adventurer it was a difficult to kill one, a severe challenge to kill two and near suicide to take on three at once. (I managed, but only with severe injuries, spinal damage and losing an eye, after which I died trying to exit the map to Travel) Still, I soloed it as an adventurer so with 20 trained and equipped soldiers the numbers may balance out. I'll continue with my fort to see if I can get them to siege yet!
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umiman

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2008, 12:04:58 am »

Impressive. Nice work. If you're feeling bored after this challenge, I have a race of gods you might want to try to kill (heh heh...).

There's a reason why Ender goblins are vulnerable to magma and heat. It's because it breaks the game if they aren't. Because of the strange, "even if I can't trade, I still want to trade with you and destroy everything in your fortress" bug combined with the settings required to allow Enders to survive magma, it's just silly.

They'll set everything around them on fire (dwarves can just walk by and POOF). And you can't target them for killing. Imagine that plus them standing right in the middle of your fortress.

Yeah, so it's kinda a drawback. One of the reasons why I stopped working on this for now.

Paulus Fahlstrom

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2008, 03:11:09 pm »

Hmm... very understandable. As it is, I'm not sure it'd be any fun if they weren't killable. As it is, I've really enjoyed testing Enders out. If you want I can provide the save game for my fortress. I've never used dwarf companion or anything but it should still give you probably one of the best case scenarios for dwarves about as tough as you can get to try anything else on. All you have to do to eliminate the traders and the running through magma problem is to wall off the main entrance, allowing the smaller back entrance to be accessible.

Still, I've enjoyed your goblin creation abominations and would definitely recommend their use in place of vanilla goblins. (Perhaps not Enders, but certainly one of the tougher variants.)

As far a the race of gods go... post their stats and I'll see if I think they're killable. ;)

But I really need to get back to my regularly scheduled story fortress. Heh. Dorenemal has regrettably been neglected while I was testing Enders out and checking out 40d.

P.S.

While having fun again in Adventure mode I tried out some other adamantine artifact weapons. Namely, Vodtogal, an artifact menacing spike! I was favorably impressed with it and must ammend my previous entry. All weapons can kill Enders with a critical hit to the head or upper/lower torso. I was surprised at how often I got a head-shot with a menacing spike and sure enough it killed them. Hammers and maces would accomplish the same by sending them flying (torso) and blowing them apart, or by crushing the head into a goo. So, that being said, all weapons are sufficient for a kill, though I still prefer swords. I like my Enders dismembered. (1 obliterated ender fortress so far, 78 Ender kills (with liberal save-scumming of course). Though there were an absurd amount of Ender goblin children. And fishery workers. lol. But don't underestimate them. They're still Enders. In fact, it's almost better when they have weapons. Almost.)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 05:17:36 pm by Paulus Fahlstrom »
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Goldsie

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2008, 10:37:20 am »

GREATEST MOD EVER! Thanks for this man, you are a gun. Hes the aftermath of a doombringer siege ;D

http://mkv25.net/dfma/poi-7504-heroicdefence
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Spoggerific

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2008, 11:18:03 am »

Can I generate a world with normal goblins, then stick in some of these guys after history is done?

I'd like to be able to use them with a current fort I have. And, for future worlds, it would be nice if I could just go through worldgen without insane goblins that kill all the dwarven civs in ten years... Would it mess anything up, or would I have to generate a new world?
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sonerohi

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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2008, 11:32:37 am »

GREATEST MOD EVER! Thanks for this man, you are a gun. Hes the aftermath of a doombringer siege ;D

http://mkv25.net/dfma/poi-7504-heroicdefence

You should have had fortifications and marksdwarves on the upmost level, and another squad, behind a projectile bunker, waiting next to the stairs on the underground floor. Would have definitely let you withstand them better.
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Re: A Better Goblin Mod
« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2008, 04:44:16 pm »

So do cage traps still work against these things? If so then consider the seige survived.
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